Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-07-2017, 10:27 AM   #31
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
I actually think you have a perfectly plausible vector to include anybody you like. During the period in which nobody thought there were any results, any of the former subjects could have openly and legally immigrated to any country in the world, or started displaying weird effects and powers and gone to any medical or scientific organization for help.
True and if the GM is looking for other powers to add, they might.

For the next adventure, I'm specifically looking for the polity that Col. Ortiz (as per background in this post) would have conspired with to apply for asylum for him and his men, who'd be deserters at that point, and their families. He'd need help getting him and his men out of Mexico and their families out of the US. And he'd have reason to suspect they were under surveillance in the US, either by a super-secret Homeland Security led task force or an illegal conspiracy with members belonging to several agencies under the DHS, as well as other organisations.

Given Col. Ortiz professional background, he'd have the best contacts within military Special Mission Units, military intelligence and other intelligence organisations of countries within the operations area of US SOCOM South and the 7th SFG (A), i.e. Central and South America and the Carribbean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
For that matter in the absence of any results, there would have been no reason to run an illegal cover-up, so there ought to be at least some sort of notation in their medical files they could have requested to have sent to any physician or insurance company on the planet too.
They weren't covering up any results, they were covering up unethical experimental protocol, security breaches and criminal misconduct made possible by lax supervision, too much latitude given to scientists with close personal ties to senior officers and, probably at least, financial and other advantage enjoyed by private biotech outfits with ties to decision-makers in the DoD.

You know, standard government bureaucracy stuff, especially when anything embarrassing can be hidden by slapping Top Secret - Special Compartmentized Intelligence on it.

The experimented ended after two test subjects who were in custody awaiting court martial escaped, killing three people. Their crimes didn't have anything to do with the experiment, but a senior scientist had used his influence at DARPA, with certain US Army official and at the DoD to delay the proceedings and allow them to be in custody in Project Jade Serenity facilities, in order not to lose the last few weeks of trial data.

Absent a cover-up, there would probably have been a full investigation, implicating several officers from Captain up to Major General in potentialy illegal acts, not to mention revealing in the media that the US Army was conducting experiments on people of the sort that the media would blow up into a huge deal.

Eh, actually, a proper investigation would probably reveal that most of the science behind the drugs came from experiments on prisoners and mental patients, not all of whom were capable of giving valid consent. And that this wasn't 'ancient' history like MKULTRA or the Tuskegee Study, but continued into the 90s and involved a lot of people still part of the DoD or the US Army, not to mention most of the scientists on Project Jade Serenity.

Some of whom, under a Dr. Edward Vanderbert, clearly had been falsifying records and taking advantage of institutionalised secrecy to get away with frankly shocking abuses. All of which would reflect on those legally responsible, even when they had been deceived themselves.

A lot of people also took part in the cover-up for the good of the Army or the country, even if they hadn't personally anything to lose, to avoid having their institutions suffer a similar loss of public trust as the CIA did in the 70s. In my experience, if they survive long enough, most institutions fundamentally exist to preserve and protect themselves from any negative consequence, regardless of what the original purpose was.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Last edited by Icelander; 04-07-2017 at 10:40 AM.
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 10:40 AM   #32
Anders
 
Anders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
True and if the GM is looking for other powers to add, they might.

For the next adventure, I'm specifically looking for the polity that Col. Ortiz (as per background in this post) would have conspired with to apply for asylum for him and his men, who'd be deserters at that point, and their families. He'd need help getting him and his men out of Mexico and their families out of the US. And he'd have reason to suspect they were under surveillance in the US, either by a super-secret Homeland Security led task force or an illegal conspiracy with members belonging to several agencies under the DHS, as well as other organisations.

Given Col. Ortiz professional background, he'd have the best contacts within military Special Mission Units, military intelligence and other intelligence organisations within countries in the operations area of US SOCOM South and the 7th SFG (A), i.e. Central and South America and the Carribbean.
Here's a list of the countries the US does not have extradition treaties with. I don't know if it's useful, but you'd want to run to a place where they wouldn't return you to the US, right? Looking at the list, Russia and China stand out. Sadly, they cannot hide in Iceland.
__________________
"Someone despises me? That is his concern. But I will see to it that I am not guilty of any word or action deserving contempt, Will he hate me? That is his concern. But I will be kind and well-intentioned to all, and ready to show this very person what he is failing to see - not with any criticism or display of tolerance, but with genuine good will..." Marcus Aurelius
Anders is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 10:56 AM   #33
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
Here's a list of the countries the US does not have extradition treaties with. I don't know if it's useful, but you'd want to run to a place where they wouldn't return you to the US, right? Looking at the list, Russia and China stand out. Sadly, they cannot hide in Iceland.
Thanks. The list seems to be pretty wrong, though. I mean, Mexico is on it and I've read the extradition treaty with Mexico. It's used all the time and anyone who has minimal exposure to the news knows that Mexico can and will extradite to the US.

Also, plenty of countries do not have formal extradition treaty with the US, but would be unwilling to provide logistical support and either false papers or expedidated citizenship to deserters from the US Army who were accused of other serious crimes.

There were plenty of nation states without extradition treaties with the US who nevertheless did not volunteer safe haven and citizenship to Edward Snowden, let alone were prepared to be mount an operation to help him reach their country. Or to Julian Assenge, for that matter.

By contrast, an extradition treaty might not prevent accepting Col. Ortiz, his men and their families, if the treaty was such that the country could argue that it did not apply to them or they fell under some exception. Say, if they argued that the charges were political, the result of the US having committed crimes against the former test subjects and the attempt to cover that up.

But, as noted above, I don't really know which polities in Central and South America or the Carribbean would be willing to do this. The potential reward is pretty good, if they have been provided with enough evidence to believe in it, and they would get good press with any anti-US factions, but I get the impression that pretty much any nation state in the Americas would lose a lot if relations with the US went as bad as US-Cuba relations for the latter half of the 20th century. Economically for any country and in terms of security support, direct and indirect military subsidies, etc. for many of them.

Which would be the best candidates and why?

I realise that China, Cuba, Russia and Venezuela are pretty plausible, but I'm wondering if Col. Ortiz could stomach going there. My character* was in regular contact with him until 2011 and he has always been a law-abiding patriot. Even if he felt betrayed by the US, he'd probably prefer to turn to a neutral country to actually aiding and abetting someone he'd regard as an actual enemy. Also, he does not have a high opinion of dictators with poor human rights records.

*I'm a player in the campaign, with additional duties of an Assistant GM for Research and Worldbuilding, as well as GURPS Rules Compliance.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 11:45 AM   #34
TGLS
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Which would be the best candidates and why?
Well, here's some options from this business insider article I found.

Brazil, Switzerland and France have all made a fuss about extradition in the past, but being branded a terrorist might be more of a big deal than merely being a murderer or tax evader. Ecuador is currently protecting Assange, so they're plausible too. Iceland is plausible given they offered to protect Assange and Bobby Fischer, as well as that talk about Snowden last year.
TGLS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 11:50 AM   #35
evileeyore
Banned
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I realise that China, Cuba, Russia and Venezuela are pretty plausible, but I'm wondering if Col. Ortiz could stomach going there. My character* was in regular contact with him until 2011 and he has always been a law-abiding patriot. Even if he felt betrayed by the US, he'd probably prefer to turn to a neutral country to actually aiding and abetting someone he'd regard as an actual enemy. Also, he does not have a high opinion of dictators with poor human rights records.
Well there is always using them to relocate and then relocating again on the sly with falsified papers once you've had time to build up a good set and lay a false trail.

There is also just hoofing it to say Brazil after building up a set of false papers while on the lam in Mexico.
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 01:19 PM   #36
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Well there is always using them to relocate and then relocating again on the sly with falsified papers once you've had time to build up a good set and lay a false trail.
We will assume that the people he'd have to deal with would not be completely incompetent. Neither side could perfectly trust each other and both would insist on some kind of guarantees. At minimum, Col. Ortiz would have to give whoever helped him a lot of verifiable information, in addition to blood and tissue samples from all the subjects, before they'd allow him and his men any kind of freedom.

More probably, especially in China or Russia, any deal would effectively involve lifetime imprisonment at a government research facility, possibly with a gilded cage if they liked him.

He and his men are mobile cultures of what might be the most remarkable pharmacological discoveries in history, but also might be a biological weapon that wipes out humanity. Reverse-engineering the process that resulted in useful biological changes is orders of magnitude more practical if you have access to multiple former test subjects, the more, the better. The same applies to researching the risks, learning to guard against them and preventing them.

If a nation state actually has evidence, sufficient to convince the upper echelon of power there, of how greatly the former test subjects can violate what were previously thought to be scientific norms, it's very possible that they'd rate investigating this as their top R&D goal. It might just as easily be seen as a matter of public health as military biotechnology.

Not to mention that if certain aspects of the changes could be isolated, I imagine that quite a lot of powerful politicians, billionaires or generals would welcome being young, physically fit and in perfect health at least into their sixties.

Cherry Bell is 36 years of age and she looks 19. She never gets sick and she'll easily bounce back from any minor injury, without much in the way of pain or complications. She can casually and without any formal training do stuff that Olympic gymnasts train for months to attempt. She doesn't like to run, but would probably meet the Olympic minimums at any distance given a day to teach her the rules. And a few weeks of self-defence training for fun 18 years ago are enough to make her capable of defeating any female UFC fighter of her weight class.

Raul Vargas is in his sixties and it's been 17 years since he had to train regularly. And the stories we hear about him indicate that he retains most or all of his Special Forces skills. Also, he's stronger, faster, healtier and more virile than any living man, it seems. That is the sort of drug treatment every aging generalissmo or Presidente Supremo for Life will want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
There is also just hoofing it to say Brazil after building up a set of false papers while on the lam in Mexico.
I doubt he'd trust he was safe in any country where he hadn't gotten guarantees of safe conduct. But Brazil is an interesting possibility, as they are a rich and powerful nation that have the potential to be a local power. If they developed drugs based on Project Jade Serenity ahead of everyone else, it could enhance their prestige and actual power quite a bit, especially if they could share their research with carefully chosen strategic partners.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:06 PM   #37
Žorkell
Icelandic - Approach With Caution
 
Žorkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Reykjavķk, Iceland
Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Or to Julian Assenge, for that matter.
I was going to suggest Honduras when I read the above, then I read more about the country and decided against it.

If I understand the situation correctly, the country or countries you're looking for should have a reasonable technological base, not be way up **** creek economy wise. Preferably be in South or Central America. And their response when the US says 'Jump!' shouldn't be 'How high?'

That about sum it up?
__________________
Žorkell Sigvaldason

Viking kittens | My photos | More of my photos
Žorkell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 03:50 PM   #38
evileeyore
Banned
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I doubt he'd trust he was safe in any country where he hadn't gotten guarantees of safe conduct. But Brazil is an interesting possibility, as they are a rich and powerful nation that have the potential to be a local power. If they developed drugs based on Project Jade Serenity ahead of everyone else, it could enhance their prestige and actual power quite a bit, especially if they could share their research with carefully chosen strategic partners.
The reason I mentioned Brazil is that while they are a strong 2nd world country, they have a seriously corrupt government. If Vargas were to feel safe anywhere, it would be where he's pretty sure he can either buy his way out of potential trouble, or end up on top in some manner.

And if a Super Spec Ops operator can't end up on top in Brazil (in some fashion) he ain't gonna make it anywhere else that's got that much going on for it.
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 07:32 PM   #39
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Žorkell View Post
I was going to suggest Honduras when I read the above, then I read more about the country and decided against it.

If I understand the situation correctly, the country or countries you're looking for should have a reasonable technological base, not be way up **** creek economy wise. Preferably be in South or Central America. And their response when the US says 'Jump!' shouldn't be 'How high?'

That about sum it up?
That's a very good summary.

As a player, I won't know what the GM eventually decides, so I have to research a wide field of possibilities. I'd therefore like to encourage a wide field of speculation.

My character will want to believe that Col. Ortiz is still fundamentally decent and that his plan is a real-world equivalent of Professor Xavier's School for Gifted Younsters. So it would be good to get a few ideas for places he could seek asylum and perhaps secure terms for his men and any other altered individuals who manage to flee there that would allow them some measure of freedom, dignity and self-determination.

On the other hand, there is always the possibility that Col. Ortiz has been warped in some way by side-effects of Project Jade Serenity and is no longer remotely like the man my character knew. Or perhaps is simply deluded. But in any case, I'd like ideas for countries where they'd consider taking him in, promise him and his men all kinds of things, but where our characters could see that the eventual end results would be terrible in some way.

Obviously, anything in between would also be good. My personal preference, as I told the GM, would be for there to be no easy answers. People with admirable characteristics can exist in more than one faction and even though the goals of the factions may be incompatible, the people may like each other. And factions that seem 'evil' at a glance may be acting ruthlessly to prevent much worse things, just as factions with high-minded ethical ideas may be risking catastrophe.

So neither me nor my character knows whether Onyx Rain, Col. Ortiz and his men or some other group or faction are the 'good guys'.

Of course, Raul Vargas and whoever elects to throw in his lot with him is probably going to be unambigiously nasty. Vargas and his followers are all about using their powers to seize wealth and power. Vargas was a callous grade-A toolshed before he had superpowers and there is every reason to believe that he has grown even worse.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 07:48 PM   #40
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: International Relations and Implications of US Supersoldier Experiments in 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
The reason I mentioned Brazil is that while they are a strong 2nd world country, they have a seriously corrupt government.
How would Brazil suit Col. Ortiz and his men?

Note that Col. Ortiz and anyone he can convince to come with him is deserting and fleeing in 2017, using a mission in Mexico designed to contact Vargas and convince him to turn himself in as the opportunity to run.

Vargas had been a fugitive since the year 2000. Vargas used to be the second in command of the ODA that most of the men whom Ortiz now command came from, but while they stayed in the Army, Vargas was a criminal on the run. Col. Ortiz will offer Vargas the chance to come with them, but it's very unlikely that Vargas will accept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
If Vargas were to feel safe anywhere, it would be where he's pretty sure he can either buy his way out of potential trouble, or end up on top in some manner.

And if a Super Spec Ops operator can't end up on top in Brazil (in some fashion) he ain't gonna make it anywhere else that's got that much going on for it.
Vargas deserted in the year 2000. We don't know where he ran at first, but by the time he'll have started to develop any powers, he was a player in the Mexican drug trade. He is believed to be related to La Familia leader 'El Chango' and got his start working under his relative.

By now, Vargas controls a powerful splinter group of Knights Templars who act as enforcers to the Sinaloa cartel. He's nowhere near as rich or powerful as El Chapo, El Mayo, Caro Quintero, El Mencho, Felix, Fuentes or Beltran Leyva are/used to be, but he may be more feared than any of them in his stomping grounds.

And, obviously, he's aiming higher than leader of a band of mercenaries. Vargas knows well enough that when kings have grown so decadent that they have to rely on mercenaries to bring fire and sword to their enemies, there is often a chance for a powerful mercenary to make himself a king.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
covert ops, jade serenity, supers, supersoldiers

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.