Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja

[Steve Jackson]

(Warning - I am still not nearly caught up with forum reading. This was prompted by about the tenth time somebody sent me a pointer to the TMP thread on the Ninja. Yep, I *know* about it now :-) I have no comment except to say that I do recognize some unique terrain pieces in those photos. Of course, the Conspiracy could very well be controlling the mind of whatsisname's cousin's best friend, and perhaps we LET him take those pictures.

But here's what that raised in my mind.

We did publish Ninja stats in the original Ogre Minis. The only special rule was that all attacks on the Ninja were at -1. I had the idea at the time that a few more special abilities might be appropriate, including some kind of "you don't see me at all" rule, and that later the price would be increased for those special rules.

I'm willing now to listen to the argument that (a) simplicity is good, and (b) jacking the price of a Ninja up to well PAST that of a Mark IV or V would be bad for overall balance.

Hmm. Some of you don't have full stats. One MB, two 2B, 8 AP. One missile rack with four internal missiles. Two external missiles.

Poll attached, but written feedback will also be appreciated.

[Apache]

Given how the CRT works in the game (1-6), a -1 die roll mod to the CRT is a HUGE combat advantage.

Ogres ignore 'D' results.

1:1 attacks vs a Ninja component only succeed on a die roll of 6.

This makes it VERY HARD to slow Ninja's down!!!!!!

And Ninja's are IMMUNE to any attack that is LESS than 1:1!!!

I think the rule in OM simulates the Ninja stealth systems just fine, and requires no further tweaking.

Leave the rest of the 'cloaked Ogre' stuff for folks playing GURPS Ogre (if only there were some...)

[Mark Hansen]

Haven't played with a Ninja yet but... as a counter to Apache's well made observation of the Ninja's nigh-invulnerability, would it be possible to play a modified golden BB rule (The Ogre Book, 2nd Ed., p.101 & here ) to allow the stealth feature to be disabled? Same idea as a critical hit but instead of destroying the Ninja outright, the -1 to attack rolls is removed. You could probably also use this against regular Ogres to give a +1 to future rolls. Just a thought...

[hcobb]

As seen here

http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/resources/record/ninja.html

it has fewer treads than a Mk-III so it's biggest turn off is ramming.

If you can catch it.

(Added)

Also it's the worst Ogre in Ogre Minis against cruise missiles.

Given the current Ogre Minis rules with Ogre smashing cruise missiles this is not a nice thing.

Suggested changes:

Keep the point value the same as a Mark V and give the Ninja these additional perks.

As a self-aware Ogre it can split-fire.

And as a self-aware Ogre it is +1 on any roll to shoot down cruise missiles.

Lastly, Ogre AP guns need to have a 12+ base roll to shoot down cruise missiles. (This helps the other Ogres, but really saves the Ninja.)

[FireHorse]

Originally Posted by Apache

…Ninjas are IMMUNE to any attack that is LESS than 1:1!!!

As opposed to regular Ogres, who are only 83.333% immune to 1:2 attacks.

Taken alone, I don't think that's a particularly noteworthy advantage. Nobody in their right mind wastes their time making 1:2 attacks on an Ogre anyway, unless they're down to practically nothing and have no choice.

The most noteworthy advantage of the -1 ECM is that it makes the tread units (of which there ought to be 48, not some damned heretical, godless commie number like 40) much more difficult to take out. Yes, it makes everything else more difficult to hit too; but attacks on treads are always 1:1, so the advantage is most noticeable there.

But is that really worth 50-60 points? Because without that -1 ECM effect, the Ninja would probably be worth less than a Mark III.

That's why I voted "I'll playtest it a bit." I don't believe that -1 is really worth so much; and I suspect it'll need a lower point value or some additional bonus from the ECM.

And a proper, god-fearing number of tread units wouldn't hurt, either. ;)

[Tickled to Death]

I like the sound of HCobb's suggestions (but with the proviso of extra playtesting), though if those don't make it I'd go for leave the Ninja as in OM option.

[DSumner]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Lastly, Ogre AP guns need to have a 12+ base roll to shoot down cruise missiles. (This helps the other Ogres, but really saves the Ninja.)

So basically, they'd become a Point Defense System, instead of a pure AP weapon.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by DSumner

So basically, they'd become a Point Defense System, instead of a pure AP weapon.

I'd love to claim credit for this, but I'd be Pulver-ized if I did as I first saw it in GURPS OGRE.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ogre/

Judging from the rules there, AP guns might have doubled range against cruise missiles, but I've only playtested normal range and it seemed to help balance a lot of the cute crater tricks, at least under the Shockwave rules.

[Spire]

How about a nice "hairy" stealth rule? Something like:

"Due to the extensive ECM and jamming systems of the Ogre Ninja, no units within a 6" Area of Effect (12" diameter) centered on the Ninja may combine attacks against it. Units outside of this range may combine attacks normally. Additionally, Cruise Missiles that enter this area of effect are treated as if encountering a Jamscreen (see p. 25 Ogre Miniatures)."

Keep the -1 modifier to the die roll, but only against 1-1 and 1-2 attacks. Infantry in overruns still ignore this modifier (they are used to firing over open sights at that range!).

Now, the Ninja is supposed to have really extensive ECM/jamming/defensive weapons systems (OM p. 11). These should be able to fool everything except the Mk1 Eyeball, including the information sharing between vehicles to coordinate attacks and the navigation systems of cruise missiles. Keeping the -1 die roll modifier against weaker attacks also represents this, as the electronics and extra point defense systems drop warheads from incoming short ranged or weaker (presuming a smaller number of incoming rounds here) attacks. The Ninja can still be attacked successfully, but it requires longer ranged weapons and coordination of their firepower to do it any harm.

This will require some playtesting. I think 150 points for the Ninja with this rule set should stay that way initially. Before raising the cost, I would also consider reducing the size of the AoE down to 4" (8" diameter) first. While significantly "hairier" than the original rule, it is still sufficiently simple.


Mark

[Marcus Heinous]

Originally Posted by Spire

Now, the Ninja is supposed to have really extensive ECM/jamming/defensive weapons systems (OM p. 11). These should be able to fool everything except the Mk1 Eyeball, including the information sharing between vehicles to coordinate attacks and the navigation systems of cruise missiles.

Mark

Except that "Beautiful" (a PanEuropean Heavy Tank) has jamming technology that could fool the human eye. See G.E.V. - A Designer's Introduction. I imagine that a stealth OGRE could do all that and a whole lot more.