[MA/Powers] Daimonomachia: the Art of Spirit Fighting

[Mercator]

This is a Martial Arts idea I've been playing with. I hope somebody finds it useful.

Background

The Heraklidai are a group of Greek warriors dedicated to the defense of Hellas and the worship of Herakles. Rumors say that they are all Herakles' sons. Heraklidai are widely known all over Hellas as sworn protectors of all Hellenic people against external enemies and Returned creatures -they are specially eager to follow rumors of new chimerai (aberrations) to fight-, and their distinctive lion skins and clubs make them instantly recognizable everywhere behind the Aegis.

Heraklidai are rather less-well known as a mystery Cult centered around the death and apotheosis of Herakles to godhood. Their religious practices, although largely unknown, are believed to be very rich and complex and to revolve around iniciatic journeys, rebirth after death and spiritual transformation but, as befits their Patron, with a very martial, physical perspective instead of a meditative, introspective one. Some believe that the mysteries behind Herakles' apotheosis might give its worshipers great power over the unseen world.

It is rumored that a chosen few have mastered these mysteries to the point of being able to affect spectral beings with sheer willpower. These warriors might be able to fight spirits and immaterial beings as if they were physical, and command them by wrestling them into submission. They are masters of daimonomachia, the art of spirit fighting.

Rules & questions

In essence, daimonomachia is just a form of Pankration whose techniques affect Insubstantial beings. It would follow the Pankration writeup of p. MA188, maybe adding the Two-Handed Axe/Mace Skill at higher levels. A practitioner (daimonomachos) can fight a spirit and force it to obey using the rules of Pain in Close Combat from p. MA119. At higher levels, it might include the power to negate the ability of the opponent to change shape, transform into water to escape (for water spirits), etc. The latter is quite easy to do with Static, Afflictions, etc.; however, I'm not sure how to model the basic power. How do I make Affects Insubstantial a learnable modifier of the Pankration skill set?

Adding a bunch of ST-based Innate Attacks seems a bit clumsy. The best idea I've had so far is to make fighters learn the cinematic Martial Arts Skills like Power Blow, Pressure Secrets, etc., modified according to Rev. Pee Kitty's rules for modifying spells, to include AI and balance it with FP costs, Concentrate maneuvers, etc; this way, you can be a normal Pankration fighter, but become a daimonomachos by learning the adequate esoteric Skills.

Another option is to make the spirit-affecting attacks learnable Techniques of the main Skills at -4 (-1 / 5%).

Both approaches would require an Unusual Background of some sort, as I want this martial art to be rare.

What do you think?

Cheers,
M

[Puppetminion]

How about using the rules from Powers for adding enhancements to unarmed attacks? IDHMBWM but they're in a box somewhere.

Adding Affects Insubstantial shouldn't be that different to adding Armour Divisor (which I think is the example used in the book).

[William]

The basic power you'd need to use the rest is an Affliction to negate Insubstantiality, delivered as a Melee Attack, yeah? A bit expensive, but you can lower the cost with various modifiers; you don't need the negation to last much longer than it takes to inflict some pain, for example. Alternatively, if the daimonomachos can whip up an aura that fritzes the Insubstantiality of any being near him, he can close to melee range and start whaling away.

[Mercator]

Originally Posted by Puppetminion

How about using the rules from Powers for adding enhancements to unarmed attacks? IDHMBWM but they're in a box somewhere.

I found the box: Modifying ST-based damage, on p. P146. Actually, it mentions Affects Insubstantial explicitly!

I like the concept very much, but I'm not sure what happens when your ST goes up (via CPs, Afflictions, etc.). Say that you get a magical item that grants Striking ST+10, but haven't paid the CPs to boost the daimonomachia strike up to the new damage. Does it become useless? Or do you just punch spirits with the old damage? Also, the box only talks about thr damage. What if I want to kick for sw damage instead?

Originally Posted by William

The basic power you'd need to use the rest is an Affliction to negate Insubstantiality, delivered as a Melee Attack, yeah? [. . .]if the daimonomachos can whip up an aura that fritzes the Insubstantiality of any being near him, he can close to melee range and start whaling away

Yes, but this would make the spirit vulnerable to everybody around, not just the daimonomachos. Maybe some Acessibility limitation on the Affliction (Only for the owner, -20%?).

I also considered using the rules for Power Stunts in Powers, but the number of rolls involved and the FP cost is way too high for a fight lasting more than one or two turns, so I discarded it.

The two methods you guys suggested seem to be the way to go. The first one fits my vision of the power better (everything remains at the Skill level and outside of the Powers system), but the rules look too inflexible; the second one is very flexible rules-wise, but it reminds me too much of . . . dunno, a "sorcerer"-like effect, which is not what I'm aiming at here. It might be the best solution, though, if I can't solve the problems with the first approach . . .

Cheers,
M.

[demonsbane]

I was thinking about this "Daimonomachia", too, but vaguely. The ideas here seem interesting.

In reality I'm waiting for Thaumatology before doing my own approaches to things as these.

[Mercator]

Originally Posted by demonsbane

I was thinking about this "Daimonomachia", too, but vaguely. The ideas here seem interesting.

I'm also interested in fleshing out the background of the Heraklidai and daimonomachia not just the rules. For example, what do you think about the Mystery Cult itself? I want to make the mystic of the Heraklidai different form the "warrior monk" stereotype. More physical and centered in showing arete, glorious exploits and things like these, all combined with some ideas about death, rebirth, and Herakles' apotheosis to godhood.

In reality I'm waiting for Thaumatology before doing my own approaches to things as these.

But June is so far away . . .

Cheers,
M.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Mercator

I'm also interested in fleshing out the background of the Heraklidai and daimonomachia not just the rules.

No doubt this is interesting, but I despair a bit in advance because the sheer difficulty of constructing a thing as this in a convincing way . . .

On the other hand, having some of the rules fleshed out defines the subject a bit more and helps too to the creation of that background.

For these type of things, some of the real world related stuff would be useful or inspirational, I think, as some characteristics of the Mithraic cult and why not, some medieval Knightly orders, a few of them sometimes regarded as secret spiritual cults, too, despite their external appearances and inside a Chatolic religious culture. And on the other hand we have, too, the heroic aspect of sorcerers, priests and shamans fighting with spirits and demons for the good of the people, the ill persons, or their own interests.

A key issue here would be: how can we portray the combat vs. spirits? For the shaman, it took place in the intermediate and psychic world, not accessible to the common experience of people in general.

In GURPS Spirits, the box "Spirit Combat" handles the thing in a simplified way: contests of Will between the shaman and the spirits in question.

But I guess you want, for your Heraklidai, a more phenomenological and "solid" approach to the question.

We have this, too: a flesh and bone warrior has the duty of fight material foes, while a spirit warrior has the analog duties regarding spiritual and insubstantial enemies or entities.

It seems you are trying to mix or to integrate both different vocations -physical and spiritual- and different characters -warrior and mystic- in a single "thing" for the Heraklidai.

At first glance, this doesn't lack entirely of sense. In ancient cosmologies as the own of civilizations where mystery cults had place, the external world and phenomena were the secondary and outward reflection of the internal or invisible -higher- worlds or realities -higher in The Chain of the Being.

Given this analogy, we can see here are a relation between "physical combat" and "spiritual combat".

Following this path, the sensible and corporeal combat of the warrior and the enemy, in this case could be correspondent as a secondary reflection of the "internal" and more essential combat of the priest or shaman against spiritual foes.

Perhaps these daimonic fighters known some meditative technique enabling them to cast Solidify (Magic, p. 151) (or similar ability) -as spell or affliction- to spiritual or subtle beings for making them vulnerable to the hostile physical whacking . . . This whacking could be still a Martial Art of some type, but it should be dependent of the adopted morphologies, skills and behaviors adopted by these daimons upon their solidification.

However, I'm not sure if I will be able to make any significant contribution here, because I think this subject isn't easy to put down in a phenomenological or rules-wise way.

Regarding death, rebirth and apotheosis following this path of Herakles, that would need additional energies and time ;)

This is very well in line with the Heraklidai as mystery cult, because apotheosis was a common goal of mystery cults, being just a different word for the achievement of satori, enlightenment, deliverance, nirvana, immortality, eternal life or deification.

By now, let me leave these paragraphs here as some miscellaneous jot down notes.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Mercator

I found the box: Modifying ST-based damage, on p. P146. Actually, it mentions Affects Insubstantial explicitly!

I like the concept very much, but I'm not sure what happens when your ST goes up (via CPs, Afflictions, etc.). Say that you get a magical item that grants Striking ST+10, but haven't paid the CPs to boost the daimonomachia strike up to the new damage. Does it become useless? Or do you just punch spirits with the old damage?

You would continue to be able to do your unarmed melee damage for however much of your ST you bought the enhancement at.

Think of it as allowing you to model someone who has to learn to become as effective with the spirits as they are with real solid opponents, so perhaps when they're starting out they can barely hurt them and as they get better they are able to do more and more damage.

Originally Posted by Mercator

Also, the box only talks about thr damage. What if I want to kick for sw damage instead?

Um, what kick for sw damage?

[JAW]

Originally Posted by Mercator

It is rumored that a chosen few have mastered these mysteries to the point of being able to affect spectral beings with sheer willpower. These warriors might be able to fight spirits and immaterial beings as if they were physical, and command them by wrestling them into submission. They are masters of daimonomachia, the art of spirit fighting.

They're also supposed to be able to wrestle with spirits - not just whak them, right?

So just innate attacks that affect spirits dont really fit.

Id say give them power to negate insubstantiality with limitations "only to self", melee range, and becomes substantial for the target - if not already" ie if one is going to wrestle with a spirit the thing is going to go both ways right? The effect should last as long as the spirit is within melee range (or maybe close combat only - and not be endable on will - if you get pinned by a spirit - ouch..

Dont ask me about the values of those limitations..

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by JAW

They're also supposed to be able to wrestle with spirits - not just whak them, right?

So just innate attacks that affect spirits dont really fit.

The bit referenced earlier in Powers p.146 covers all unarmed melee attacks, that includes wrestling with spirits.