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Old 01-09-2020, 12:11 AM   #1
Ultraviolet
 
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Default [TG] Grabbing a steering wheel - what ST ratings to use?

Okay, we played Cliffhangres last night again.

The current GM hates grappling, solely because it takes too long, in his opinion. Really, all combat takes time.

Anyhoo
A car was driving at breakneck speed down a Scottish country road lined by stone walls. At the steeing wheel was our doctor Elizabeth Abney-Hastings. Or perhaps a clone of her?
On the sideboard jumps Gustav, who somehow is an ancient Greek hoplite frozen in time and waking up in the 20s, but quickly picked up the technological advances of cars for instance. It turned out he was actually the clone.

Gustav holds onto the car with one hand and grabs the steering wheel with another. We play with the max CP option, so he has a 4 CP grip.

Elizabeth has a two-handed hold of the wheel so she has STx1 CP Grip ST, for a whopping 9. But what is the min ST for holding onto the wheel? Effectively her Grip ST is reduced to 9-4=5

This is important in order to determine who has control. Or it would have been if Elizabeth hadn't bitten his hand (and wow bite dam is hard to find! MA81 btw) and he let go.

It later turned out the players actually had been playing their own clones for a while, unravelling what the real characters had been doing.
The GM just had the players play the clones, while deciding what the real charactes did, and in this final showdown had the players control the real characters in some situations. Confusing, I know. And I was just there for the final showdown, where I played the clone of Max the German Moviestar, because that player wasn't there, and my own character hadn't been on the adventure at all.

Anyway, the question was about rating min ST for objects other than weapons, for the purposes of grabbing and control. People coulkd be wrestling for a detonator for explosives or a myriad of other non-weapon objects.
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Old 01-09-2020, 05:31 AM   #2
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Default Re: [TG] Grabbing a steering wheel - what ST ratings to use?

I suggest a quick contest of ST, with a bonus for using more hands.
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Old 01-09-2020, 06:11 AM   #3
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Default Re: [TG] Grabbing a steering wheel - what ST ratings to use?

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Originally Posted by coronatiger View Post
I suggest a quick contest of ST, with a bonus for using more hands.
That would be the "old fashioned" way of doing it.

Using TG rules as for grabbing a weapon you get situations covering everything inbetween the ones where either one side or the other has control.

TG p12 "siezing an object" cover this well, at least for weapons where there is a min ST rating to compare to.

If the two combatants instead had been fighting over a ST 10 1-handed club:

Elizabeth has Grip ST 9, because she is holding on with both hands. Minimum to keep the club Ready is ½ min ST (1 handed weapon) or 5. So Elizabeth has 4 to spare.
Gustav grabs one handed for 4 CP (half of half of his Trained ST).
Elizabeth's Grip ST is reduced by 4 to 5, which is still sufficient to keep it Ready.
Let's say she only had a 1 handed grip, for Grip ST 4. Grip ST is reduced to 0, below the number needed to keep it ready. But not below 0, sso Gustav has not wrested it from her.

If doign this on the steering wheel of the car, if ELizabeth has it Ready I think she is steering. Ig Gustav manages to reduce her Grip ST below 0 he is now driving (although poorly, because he is outside om the sideboard!).
In the interval of "not Ready" nobody is driving!
But what min ST vaulue to use for nonb-weapon objects?
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Old 01-09-2020, 06:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: [TG] Grabbing a steering wheel - what ST ratings to use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
That would be the "old fashioned" way of doing it.

Using TG rules as for grabbing a weapon you get situations covering everything inbetween the ones where either one side or the other has control.

TG p12 "siezing an object" cover this well, at least for weapons where there is a min ST rating to compare to.

If the two combatants instead had been fighting over a ST 10 1-handed club:

Elizabeth has Grip ST 9, because she is holding on with both hands. Minimum to keep the club Ready is ½ min ST (1 handed weapon) or 5. So Elizabeth has 4 to spare.
Gustav grabs one handed for 4 CP (half of half of his Trained ST).
Elizabeth's Grip ST is reduced by 4 to 5, which is still sufficient to keep it Ready.
Let's say she only had a 1 handed grip, for Grip ST 4. Grip ST is reduced to 0, below the number needed to keep it ready. But not below 0, sso Gustav has not wrested it from her.

If doign this on the steering wheel of the car, if ELizabeth has it Ready I think she is steering. Ig Gustav manages to reduce her Grip ST below 0 he is now driving (although poorly, because he is outside om the sideboard!).
In the interval of "not Ready" nobody is driving!
But what min ST vaulue to use for nonb-weapon objects?
I hate to torpedo my own work, but the morass that is Grip ST was not as well thought through as I'd have liked in terms of intuitive play and application to the things (like steering wheels and holding on to weights) that it is naturally applied to.

Spending CP to interfere in a QC of ST (to retain control of the wheel) or DX ( to steer) is probably the best interaction there that moves the game along but also represents the possibility of someone wresting even temporary control over the wheel from someone. Use CP to represent the grip of both on the wheel, and then ST or DX/Driving as appropriate (or ST-based Driving!) for the rest, and resolve by QC.
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Old 01-10-2020, 12:22 AM   #5
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Default Re: [TG] Grabbing a steering wheel - what ST ratings to use?

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I hate to torpedo my own work, but the morass that is Grip ST was not as well thought through as I'd have liked in terms of intuitive play and application to the things (like steering wheels and holding on to weights) that it is naturally applied to.

Spending CP to interfere in a QC of ST (to retain control of the wheel) or DX ( to steer) is probably the best interaction there that moves the game along but also represents the possibility of someone wresting even temporary control over the wheel from someone. Use CP to represent the grip of both on the wheel, and then ST or DX/Driving as appropriate (or ST-based Driving!) for the rest, and resolve by QC.
Thanks Douglas
Would you still use the original rules for wrestling for a weapon though?

So in my example, the driver Elizabeth (ST9) is already established as a driver, so I'd give her maxed out CP for a two-handed grip, so 9 CP.
If she had just one second before grabbed the wheel, she would only get CP as for 1 grapple attack (we play with max CP instead of rolling, so ST/2).

The opposition, Gustav (Trained ST 16) gets CP for 1 attack, one-handed in this case, so ST/4 or 4.

The following round both sides may spend CP in the contest of control. Normally his should be ST vs ST, but in this case I'd let ELizabeth roll ST based Driving, to give her the benefit of her Driving skills.
If Elizabeth wins, she keeps copntrol of the car. If Gustav wins, he just turns the wheel and a crash is likely.

But if Elizabeth spends all her CP trying to get control, and still loses, she somehow lets go?
Same goes for Gustav, so why would you do that, what would that be like? Taking unnecessary risks I guess.
I think neither side would spend CP but rather just rely on hampering the opposition.
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Old 01-10-2020, 12:03 PM   #6
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Default Re: [TG] Grabbing a steering wheel - what ST ratings to use?

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
Thanks Douglas
Would you still use the original rules for wrestling for a weapon though?
to be clear, were I to do "Technical Grappling, 2nd Edition" I'd start from the core rules I wrote into Fantastic Dungeon Grappling, and drop the concept of Grip ST completely as too fine resolution for a system that has "fully Ready, DX penalties, Unready, On the Floor" as system states.

It's not just fiddle, it's fiddle that tends to not work well in play (in my own personal experience; if others have made it work, booyah).

The FDG rules are based, obviously, on the Dungeon Fantasy RPG's assumptions of heroic awesome. So to ensure human-sized someone can properly wrestle a giant, titan, or other monster that features in old myths, the impact of size modifier (for example) is entirely ignored. That would have to change to allow support for more realistic games. Techniques are not a thing in the DFRPG; they very much are in regular GURPS and so I'd need to account for them.

But the FDG core is work refined from six or more years of actual play experience. They're just better, so I'd start from there.

Quote:
So in my example, the driver Elizabeth (ST9) is already established as a driver, so I'd give her maxed out CP for a two-handed grip, so 9 CP.
If she had just one second before grabbed the wheel, she would only get CP as for 1 grapple attack (we play with max CP instead of rolling, so ST/2).

The opposition, Gustav (Trained ST 16) gets CP for 1 attack, one-handed in this case, so ST/4 or 4.

The following round both sides may spend CP in the contest of control. Normally his should be ST vs ST, but in this case I'd let ELizabeth roll ST based Driving, to give her the benefit of her Driving skills.
If Elizabeth wins, she keeps copntrol of the car. If Gustav wins, he just turns the wheel and a crash is likely.

But if Elizabeth spends all her CP trying to get control, and still loses, she somehow lets go?
I'd rule yes - Gustav must have been strong enough or lucky enough to do something that made her control over the wheel go to zero. That's one of the "wait, what?" things that Peter and I were tossing about with respect to grappling moves like choke holds and strangulation, where spending CP with a good choke gets a bit odd; we came up with the idea of "risking" CP instead. If you lose the contest or fail your roll, the CP risked are gone. If you win and make your roll, you get the benefit of the CP but you still have the choke/grip on the wheel.

It's not perfect.

Quote:

Same goes for Gustav, so why would you do that, what would that be like? Taking unnecessary risks I guess.
I think neither side would spend CP but rather just rely on hampering the opposition.
Right. See "Wait, WHAT?" above. Micro-grappling for Grip ST has too many states not related to the normal GURPS progression I mention again for clarity: "You're good to go," "DX penalties," "Unready" "Why is my sword on the floor?"
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Old 01-13-2020, 02:47 AM   #7
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Default Re: [TG] Grabbing a steering wheel - what ST ratings to use?

So to sum up:

Elizabeth has a well prepared, two-handed hold of the wheel, with CP equal to her full Trained ST (9)

Gustav makes a one-handed grapple for Trained ST/4 CP, or 4.

If only going by referred control, in Elizabeth's turn, she has a penalty to Driving of -2, because Gustav's 4 CP on the wheel functions as a grapple of her arms, which she needs to use for driving. And Gustav in his turn has -4 because of ELizabeth's hold.

However things are not static, and they wrest for control. So Elizabeth must succeed on a Quick contest of ST vs Gustav, in each round she wishes to drive. And Gustav must to the same om his turn.
Elizabeth rolls ST 9 -2 referred control vs Gustav's 8-4 (Trained ST/2 because of only 1 hand). It seems Elizabeth is likely to fail by the least in the contest, and that should be enough.
However ELizabeth can, on her round, spend CP to reduce Gustav's roll. And Gustav can do the same in his round.

Does that sound right?
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Old 01-13-2020, 05:39 AM   #8
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Default Re: [TG] Grabbing a steering wheel - what ST ratings to use?

Don't forget to give the driver the option of using a ST-based Driving skill roll to retain control.

Holding the steering wheel so that it can't get knocked out of your hands in a collision or skid is basic combat or race driving technique. The same benefits would apply to a sudden attempt to wrench the steering wheel to one side.

Arguably, "Retain Control" could be treated as an Average technique based on any suitable vehicle skill. It would have the same game effects as the Retain Weapon technique, but would specifically counter attempts to grab or slam the controls away.
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Old 01-13-2020, 06:39 AM   #9
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Default Re: [TG] Grabbing a steering wheel - what ST ratings to use?

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Don't forget to give the driver the option of using a ST-based Driving skill roll to retain control.

Holding the steering wheel so that it can't get knocked out of your hands in a collision or skid is basic combat or race driving technique. The same benefits would apply to a sudden attempt to wrench the steering wheel to one side.

Arguably, "Retain Control" could be treated as an Average technique based on any suitable vehicle skill. It would have the same game effects as the Retain Weapon technique, but would specifically counter attempts to grab or slam the controls away.
Yes. I like that
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