Charging a pike formation

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Maybe if they met on a featureless infinite plain, but if they are trying to enter a castle, passing through the pikemen would only mean that they're surrounded by the pikemen and the guys inside the castle.

Yeah. The trick with a pike formation is not that you can't avoid them, but you may need to actively defeat them. Those are good examples of situations where the PCs might really need to go through, or overcome, the pikes and not just avoid them.

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

That depends on the size of the pike formation as well as the points these swordsmen have, I'd say 250 Dungeon Fantasy style fighters could open way through a pike formation of 40 guys(4 deep, 10 wide).

I'd bet on the DFers in that case, too. Even if you didn't let the mage cast spells or the scout shoot arrows, my group would likely run through a pike formation like Groo runs through an army. Or steadily decimate them. It's just a question of excessive skill and power overcoming what would realistically be a difficult situation.

Given historical swordsmen, as the OP mentioned, and assuming they aren't a bunch of amped-up Weapon Masters, this should be exercise in parry a lot and then giving up, getting stabbed a lot, or, just maybe, getting lucky and getting in close and doing some damage. The last is possible, even not unrealistic, but Mark gave a good account of just how many attacks they'll need to deal with.

[nick012000]

You're all forgetting the possibility of four Battlemages with spells like Explosive Fireball. ;)

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by nick012000

You're all forgetting the possibility of four Battlemages with spells like Explosive Fireball. ;)

Not so much forgetting anything as remembering.

The OP specified that the PCs are swordsmen, not battlemages; also that the setting is historical Venice, not somewhere with battlemages in it.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Not so much forgetting anything as remembering.

The OP specified that the PCs are swordsmen, not battlemages; also that the setting is historical Venice, not somewhere with battlemages in it.

And were there battlemages I would suspect that there would be tactics that work against them.

One of the things I hated about most of the settings that my DnD characters ran in was that they used typical historical battle tactics in a world where fireballs and lightning bolts were common.

Without magic, a good solicitor pike formation will grind four swordsman into hamburger.

Now, my game's party, even if you remove the magic, one cinematic martial artist with a skill of 22+, and three others of 16+. And an inventor who barely can defend herself unless her tech works, in which case she has four small metal spheres, three of them armed with blasters. And one of the others has a monowire whip which would probably do some nastiness.

And a really good use for power blow is to get your ST multiplied by 3 and to play "Bowling for Pikemen!"

Of course, without magic, there probably aren't cinematic martial artists of her calibre.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

I would think a bit about what you can see from 4-5 ranks back in a press with weapons being held chest high or over head. It may be that rear ranks are making attacks like a wild swing. The pike block is supposed to engage a dense formation of the enemy where you are almost certainly going to hit something. This is, I think how the tercios worked. Slipping between or under pikes and working there way into the front ranks to do murder there because most of the pikemen can't see you.

I might handwave and just make the pikemen take Attack manoeuvres, with the poor visibility negating the lack of a need to defend oneself. The details seem more or less unknowable, unless someone interested in the Face of Battle approach has gone to work on early 16th century sources.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I might handwave and just make the pikemen take Attack manoeuvres, with the poor visibility negating the lack of a need to defend oneself.

FWIW, though, by the rules as written, they can attack normally. It says so explicitly on pg 388 under Attacking Through an Occupied Hex. It doesn't may multiple hexes in a row, but over the years it's never been put forward as a one-hex-only kind of thing. So by the RAW they should be fine even 3 or 4 hexes back.

[Joseph Paul]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

unless someone interested in the Face of Battle approach has gone to work on early 16th century sources.

That would be me....In addition I have been in row 3-6 of an infantry formation and most of what you can see is the backs of your guys' heads. Occasionally you see a glimpse of the head of someone that you can tell is your foe but the chance to make an attack is slim. I suspect that what actually happens is that the front rank engages and has the ability to actually aim and the rear ranks press forward knowing that their pikes will hit something. The rear ranks will be feeling for resistance to their pikes and then heave on it hoping to penetrate. Against a large group of infantry this would be true. The rear ranks don't have to be particularly harmful either. If they are catching bits of armor or clothes that would then restrict their opponents' movement and actions that is good enough to keep them in place until a katzbalger can be employed. Throwing the enemy formation back so that they are in each others way even more lessens any offensive options the enemy can take and degrades their defenses. Hard to dodge when you are trying to disentangle yourself from Bob and Jim who were behind you. On the other hand those rear ranks can make it hard for the front to be thrown down. Shield rushing a front ranker means that the two guys immediately behind him are going to put their shoulders into his back to keep him upright. If he goes down then they could trip and go down. (I once toppled an entire 20 man formation when I disengaged from my opponents and fell down in front of the formation that had just started a charge. Pity they were on my side!)

If the OP's players' characters have no where to run to they are going to die unless they can lift the pikes or make a grand sweep to left and right. That means someone getting under the shafts (or between them for the sweep) and pushing them out of the way enough to allow the others to close with a small section of the line and hack an exit through while the rest of the pike formation tries to re-orient itself. A pikeman's only defense vs sword is to parry with the haft of the pike and it may be tangled. He is hemmed in front back and both sides (I think the pikemen are violating the 'one standing figure per hex' rule of GURPS but getting away with it with a Teamwork technique.) The plkemen may shrink to the sides when they find the swordsmen in their midst thus forming a corridor out of the formation. Fright rolls to maintain formation? Do the swordsmen do AoA (double) for more frightfulness?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

FWIW, though, by the rules as written, they can attack normally. It says so explicitly on pg 388 under Attacking Through an Occupied Hex. It doesn't may multiple hexes in a row, but over the years it's never been put forward as a one-hex-only kind of thing. So by the RAW they should be fine even 3 or 4 hexes back.

Interpreting the rules to allow attacks through multiple occupied hexes is not reasonable, IMO. Note that the relevant section of Campaigns makes no mention of multiple hexes.

[CraigM]

Just a tangent, but there's an interesting possibility that might let moderately heroic PCs have a chance against a pike block.

In one of the Sharpe books, a British square (essentially a modified pike & shot formation) is destroyed by French cavalry. Normally a square is immune to cavalry attack: the horses won't charge the bayonets, and the infantry have the advantage while their line holds.

But in this case, one of the attacking horses was shot just before it turned away from the line, and the momentum of the corpse carried it into the defenders, opening a gap for the rest of the cavalry to exploit.

Setting up the PCs as the first to react to the cracking of a pike formation seems to me to have fun dramatic potential.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by CraigM

Just a tangent, but there's an interesting possibility that might let moderately heroic PCs have a chance against a pike block.

In one of the Sharpe books, a British square (essentially a modified pike & shot formation) is destroyed by French cavalry. Normally a square is immune to cavalry attack: the horses won't charge the bayonets, and the infantry have the advantage while their line holds.

But in this case, one of the attacking horses was shot just before it turned away from the line, and the momentum of the corpse carried it into the defenders, opening a gap for the rest of the cavalry to exploit.

Setting up the PCs as the first to react to the cracking of a pike formation seems to me to have fun dramatic potential.

This would be the action at Garcia Hernandez, as part of the pursuit after Salamanca - and that actually happened.