GURPS Fantasy or DF?

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

My books aren't in front of me, but doesn't Henchmen (DF 15) cover similar ground?

Yep, but they do it in different ways.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

My books aren't in front of me, but doesn't Henchmen (DF 15) cover similar ground?

Yes. If you like lower-powered fantasy, then I'd recommend picking up Dungeon Fantasy 15: Henchmen after Dungeon Fantasy 1: Adventurers and Dungeon Fantasy 2: Dungeons, but before any of the other supplements on characters. The way it does things addresses most of the concerns about both power level and customizability.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Incidentally, I recommend DF 2 before DF Monsters. DF 2 has some monsters in it, and it's chock full of useful rules for running a dungeon crawl. Now, I know you want more than that, but I think you'll still find those rules particularly helpful.

I'd recommend this as well. DF2 is more broadly useful for a game, and DFM1 assumes you know all the stuff in DF2.

[Kromm]

In general, the Dungeon Fantasy titles aren't best bought in release order. I'd recommend the character-oriented supplements in this sequence: DF 1: Adventurers for the basics; then DF 15: Henchmen for lower-powered starting conditions; then a tossup between DF 3: The Next Level, DF 5: Allies, and DF 11: Power-Ups, all of which lean toward higher-powered games, the best choice depending on whether you prioritize nonhuman races, pets, or extra abilities, respectively; and finally the guides to professions that interest your players: DF 4: Sages, DF 7: Clerics, DF 9: Summoners, DF 12: Ninja, and/or DF 14: Psi. The volumes for GMs work best in this order: DF 2: Dungeons for the basics, then DF Monsters 1 for things to fight, then DF 8: Treasure Tables for rewards for fighting, and finally DF 6: 40 Artifacts if you need more rewards or DF 10: Taverns if you want to flesh out where the gold is spent. DF 13: Loadouts is a special case . . . for it to make the most sense, get it after you have both DF 1 and DF 8. It's hard to say how to interpolate the player and GM items, but I'd probably go with getting the GM's supplements up to DF 8 (so DF 2, DFM 1, and DF 8) before starting in on the players' guides.

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by Kromm

In general, the Dungeon Fantasy titles aren't best bought in release order. I'd recommend the character-oriented supplements in this sequence: DF 1: Adventurers for the basics; then DF 15: Henchmen for lower-powered starting conditions; then a tossup between DF 3: The Next Level, DF 5: Allies, and DF 11: Power-Ups, all of which lean toward higher-powered games, the best choice depending on whether you prioritize nonhuman races, pets, or extra abilities, respectively; and finally the guides to professions that interest your players: DF 4: Sages, DF 7: Clerics, DF 9: Summoners, DF 12: Ninja, and/or DF 14: Psi. The volumes for GMs work best in this order: DF 2: Dungeons for the basics, then DF Monsters 1 for things to fight, then DF 8: Treasure Tables for rewards for fighting, and finally DF 6: 40 Artifacts if you need more rewards or DF 10: Taverns if you want to flesh out where the gold is spent. DF 13: Loadouts is a special case . . . for it to make the most sense, get it after you have both DF 1 and DF 8. It's hard to say how to interpolate the player and GM items, but I'd probably go with getting the GM's supplements up to DF 8 (so DF 2, DFM 1, and DF 8) before starting in on the players' guides.

I should add (again) that together with DF1, the DF on the Cheap is excellent; add in DF15: Henchmen, and you're golden for quick made characters. I use them in my non-DF fantasy all the time.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I have to say I find these complaints slightly misdirected. It is still a GURPS supplement after all.

The system isn't stopping you from being those things, the agreed campaign boundaries that your group is using is stopping you from being those things.

Perhaps I was unclear in my post. Those complaints were, indeed, about the mandatory use of templates. Nobody complains about the mere existence of said templates--I thought that might be obvious from context, but I guess it wasn't. They complain about having to use templates to make characters, while others demand templates and want their fellow players to have to choose from the same selection of templates so everything will be "fair."
Note that I'm just reporting what I've heard from players. I personally love the templates, and I'm generally a fan of making them mandatory with minor tweaks as suggested in DF3, for game balance reasons as well as to ease the chargen process (including the GM's job of checking over characters). I'm talking about dungeon crawl games of course. I wouldn't use those templates as is in a more expansive fantasy game of the sort the OP is describing--I would rather make my own templates for players that want them, or just impose general guidelines on chargen.

[panton41]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

You might want to check out Dungeon Fantasy on the Cheap, for lower point starting templates based on the ones in DF 1.

I've used this and the lenses in DF3 to allow players to make "multi-class" characters and stay within a 250 point limit.

DF also gives a good starting point for more generalized fantasy characters that built off common fantasy troupes. Keep in mind racial templates are stripped bare of anything that doesn't involve "killing monsters and taking their stuff" if you want Elves to have advantages for being long-lived and artistically talented then you'll want to at least modify them to your liking.

[Lord Dynel]

Thanks to those who are suggesting Dungeon Fantasy on the Cheap. I checked it out and it looks pretty good. Between that and the existing templates, I don't think I'll have a problem with templates.

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Some people have done it, but conversion is best handled in an impressionistic fashion rather than by formula. That is, don't try to make a one-to-one conversion of stats and abilities. Better to start with the description of the monster and come up with GURPS stats out of whole cloth.

Yeah, TBC, the more I thought about that question, the more I figured that would be best way to build monsters. Making an assessment of the monster I want to convert and building from the ground up would be better than trying to convert it using a static formula.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

GURPS Fantasy contains quite a few 150 point templates (which are less ruthlessly combat-focused). A 150-point fantasy campaign is perfectly viable.

Poke around at the GURPS Fantasy templates. They have pretty reasonable occupational templates and pretty reasonable racial templates. For example, the Elf template is 70 points and the Archer template is 75. The Assassin Template is 125 points and Humans are 0 (so you can just fill up on another 25 points). And so on.

It's good to hear that 150-point characters will work. I didn't know what kind of challenges they'll be able to face with 150 points. I don't want them to be too weak, but I don't want to start them too powerful and with too many options (especially since they're new) from the beginning. The way you described the template matching, Mailanka, is kind of how I wanted to present it to the players - "here are some 'races,' here are 'classes,' take a look at them and let me know what interests you." I might start with some preliminary questions about character concept and go from there.

Thanks for the "reading order," Kromm. It is much appreciated. And thanks to those who suggested DF 15. I'll be sure to pick it up.

I'm running out of questions, but I wanted to ask a different type of question. This one might be a little more subjective...

Coming from years of D&D (both me and my players), I may not exactly know how to "run" GURPS, while my players might not know how to "play" it. Roleplaying is roleplaying, and I think I have that aspect is covered. I don't know how well I'll build encounters appropriate for them, and I don't know if they'll be able to handle the encounters I build them. Is there any advice to be given in this regard? Anything advice you could spare a new GURPS GM on how to build an appropriate encounter? Or is this going to be one of those things that I have to feel out over many games?

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Lord Dynel

Coming from years of D&D (both me and my players), I may not exactly know how to "run" GURPS, while my players might not know how to "play" it. Roleplaying is roleplaying, and I think I have that aspect is covered. I don't know how well I'll build encounters appropriate for them, and I don't know if they'll be able to handle the encounters I build them. Is there any advice to be given in this regard? Anything advice you could spare a new GURPS GM on how to build an appropriate encounter? Or is this going to be one of those things that I have to feel out over many games?

My advice is try to keep things simple at first and build to more options later. Role-play encounters and include meaningful skill rolls (as you would in most other rpgs I imagine), and try to keep in mind the PCs' skill lists so you'll have a basic idea of their capabilities and limitations.

As far as combat, one great thing about GURPS is that players' tactical decisions can make a big difference in the outcome of a battle. This makes it awesome to play but also unpredictable, which can worry some GMs. Be prepared to improvise a little if need be. I would start with a few easier combats so everyone can get a feel for things without the PCs running into too much danger.
With 150 points your players will have some very powerful tricks up their sleeves though, especially if you're allowing cinematic abilites (like Weapon Master) and supernatural powers (like Magery).

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Lord Dynel

Coming from years of D&D (both me and my players), I may not exactly know how to "run" GURPS, while my players might not know how to "play" it. Roleplaying is roleplaying, and I think I have that aspect is covered. I don't know how well I'll build encounters appropriate for them, and I don't know if they'll be able to handle the encounters I build them. Is there any advice to be given in this regard? Anything advice you could spare a new GURPS GM on how to build an appropriate encounter? Or is this going to be one of those things that I have to feel out over many games?

That is something that tends to come with experience. GURPS provides a lot of tactical options, and I don't just mean in terms of combat maneuvers. There are solid rules for manipulating situations to gain overwhelming advantage when push comes to shove. For example, stealthy approaches to scouting the opposition and choosing your ground can be a significant force multiplier allowing a weak opponent to defeat a strong one, and the extensive social rules might allow you to talk your way out of a fight in the first place. Something not to do is to be fooled into thinking that point costs are a meaningful measure of opposition; the canonical example is the 25-point street thug (who has basic combat effectiveness) vs. the 200 point accountant (who has wealth and intelligence and high levels of complicated skills, but is a physical wreck and loses any stand-up fight by default). Not infrequently, setting up encounters in GURPS is not a matter of comparing power levels as much as it is envisioning ways one side or another can control the circumstances of the encounter in a way that's favorable to them, playing their relative strengths against the opponents' weaknesses.