Hall of Judgement - Sample Character Lisbet's Wrestling Abilities?

[wmervine4]

For the Hall of Judgement sample character, Lisbet Vinsdottir, Human Wrestler on page 101, I'm having trouble understanding how her Control Maximum (CM) was calculated.

Her CM is listed as 28; however, I'm not seeing how that number was arrived at. CM is described on page 63 as being the total of ST + Lifting ST + Wrestling bonus described on DFRPG Adventurers, pages 92-93. For Lisbet, I would calculate this as 15 (her base ST) + 6 (Lifting ST) + 2 (ST bonus for knowing Wrestling at DX+2 or higher), which only comes out to 23, but her CM is listed as 28, so where is the extra 5 effective Lifting ST coming from?

I was also wondering how she has 3d+5 control on her grappling attack, but the math on this works fine if her effective ST is 28, so if I can figure that part out, this question goes away.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this one?

[Dalin]

I think this has to do with the Wrestling Master advantage:

Originally Posted by Pyramid 3/111, p. 13

Your ST bonus in a grapple, break free, strangle, takedown, or pin isn’t limited to +2 if you know Wrestling at DX+2 (Wrestling, Adventurers, p. 93). It’s +3 at DX+3, +4 at DX+4, and so on, with no upper limit!

[Harald387]

Originally Posted by wmervine4

For the Hall of Judgement sample character, Lisbet Vinsdottir, Human Wrestler on page 101, I'm having trouble understanding how her Control Maximum (CM) was calculated.

Her CM is listed as 28; however, I'm not seeing how that number was arrived at. CM is described on page 63 as being the total of ST + Lifting ST + Wrestling bonus described on DFRPG Adventurers, pages 92-93. For Lisbet, I would calculate this as 15 (her base ST) + 6 (Lifting ST) + 2 (ST bonus for knowing Wrestling at DX+2 or higher), which only comes out to 23, but her CM is listed as 28, so where is the extra 5 effective Lifting ST coming from?

I was also wondering how she has 3d+5 control on her grappling attack, but the math on this works fine if her effective ST is 28, so if I can figure that part out, this question goes away.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this one?

The Wrestling Master advantage (provided in the Wrestler template in Pyramid 3/111) grants a greater ST bonus in grapples: +3 at DX+3, +4 at DX+4, and so on, with no upper limit. With Wrestling at DX+7, Lizbet's ST bonus for wrestling is +7, so 15 (base) +6 (Lifting ST) +7 (ST bonus for Wrestling Master) = 28.

In making the transition to Fantastic Dungeon Grappling, the decision was made to handle that increased ST bonus as an increase to effective ST for all grappling purposes (control maximum, contests, and CP); this keeps it simple (instead of having multiple different ST values for grappling) and lets the wrestler stay 'in the game' numbers-wise beside high-ST Weapon Masters.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Harald387

The Wrestling Master advantage (provided in the Wrestler template in Pyramid 3/111) grants a greater ST bonus in grapples: +3 at DX+3, +4 at DX+4, and so on, with no upper limit. With Wrestling at DX+7, Lizbet's ST bonus for wrestling is +7, so 15 (base) +6 (Lifting ST) +7 (ST bonus for Wrestling Master) = 28.

In making the transition to Fantastic Dungeon Grappling, the decision was made to handle that increased ST bonus as an increase to effective ST for all grappling purposes (control maximum, contests, and CP); this keeps it simple (instead of having multiple different ST values for grappling) and lets the wrestler stay 'in the game' numbers-wise beside high-ST Weapon Masters.

And for those saying "but my goodness, a Grappling ST of 28, and that many control points . . . that's a one-hit win on many creatures!"

Yes. It is. So is the spectacular damage one gets with a tricked-out knight, which could be cutting or impaling to boot. In testing, while the Wrestler could absolutely rock most things that can be grappled, it's a one-trick pony and out of that grappling element, effectiveness falls off. She's "only" ST 15 when you're dealing with Striking ST and not-grappling, which is good but not spectacular.

Still: an awful lot of fun to throw down that many CP per turn.

[wmervine4]

Originally Posted by Dalin

I think this has to do with the Wrestling Master advantage:

Originally Posted by Harald387

The Wrestling Master advantage (provided in the Wrestler template in Pyramid 3/111) grants a greater ST bonus in grapples: +3 at DX+3, +4 at DX+4, and so on, with no upper limit. With Wrestling at DX+7, Lizbet's ST bonus for wrestling is +7, so 15 (base) +6 (Lifting ST) +7 (ST bonus for Wrestling Master) = 28.

Interesting. This definitely explains it, so thank you both!

It does seem odd to me that Hall of Judgement would utilize an advantage only published in a Pyramid article without referencing that article or reproducing the relevant text (but maybe I missed it).

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

And for those saying "but my goodness, a Grappling ST of 28, and that many control points . . . that's a one-hit win on many creatures!"

Yes. It is. So is the spectacular damage one gets with a tricked-out knight, which could be cutting or impaling to boot. In testing, while the Wrestler could absolutely rock most things that can be grappled, it's a one-trick pony and out of that grappling element, effectiveness falls off. She's "only" ST 15 when you're dealing with Striking ST and not-grappling, which is good but not spectacular.

Still: an awful lot of fun to throw down that many CP per turn.

It is awful fun. I actually ran Lisbet as an NPC in my last game when one of my players wanted to challenge the best fighter in town, and I happened to have her stat block handy. Little did I realize how much she would own him. I felt kind of bad because he really didn't have a chance, but he was also being super cocky so I didn't feel too bad. :P

Thank you Mr. Cole for making such a fantastic supplement!

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by wmervine4

It does seem odd to me that Hall of Judgement would utilize an advantage only published in a Pyramid article without referencing that article or reproducing the relevant text (but maybe I missed it).

I can only reproduce what I have license to reproduce, and Pyramid isn't part of my license. The character can be *played* just fine, using the stats on the page, so we went with it as-is because it supported the "wooo! grappling with Fantastic Dungeon Grappling is fun!" message and because the Dungeon Fantasy RPG is really good for just "grab that sheet and play it."

It is awful fun. I actually ran Lisbet as an NPC in my last game when one of my players wanted to challenge the best fighter in town, and I happened to have her stat block handy. Little did I realize how much she would own him. I felt kind of bad because he really didn't have a chance, but he was also being super cocky so I didn't feel too bad. :P

Thank you Mr. Cole for making such a fantastic supplement!

I wound up doing something similar in a Dragon Heresy/D&D5e game where the players rolled into town and challenged the reigning champ to a grappling match, and the 1st-level PCs found out what happens when you go up against a 5th level PC with two attacks.

I'm glad you like it - I should be coming to Kickstarter in a few weeks (1-2) with another supplement set in that setting. I actually posted a layout trial for it on my blog yesterday.