How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic

[Gef]

Originally Posted by Refplace

They are often discussed in literature collectively.
But having them all be the same skill loses some of the feel I wanted to get in using them in the first place.

Why, with a ritual for each muse, and a technique for each ritual?

If you have multiple rituals for each muse, then you could specify favorable defaults between their respective techniques. Make this path have few rituals, all of them powerful, so characters have an incentive to buy the techniques above default. That way, each follower of the muse path will be known for the muse(s) in which he specializes.

GEF

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Refplace

No planets.
This is kind of like Disc World. Originally it was a ring world back when I ran it under 3e but in rebuilding it for Fourth Edition I made it a Chalice.
Your idea is solid though do not get me wrong. It just doesn't get me the feel I was looking for. I want Mneysmone (Memory and in some circles mother of the muses) and the Muses to be and feel important in the game. At least to this worlds version of elves.

Even if it's not planetary correspondences, you could still break things down according to the Olympians and some other major figures, supposing that the Muses and Mnemosyne exist in that context with the Muses associated with Apollo.

Apollo - light, the arts, knowledge, archery, disease and healing, prophecy and divination
- each Muse represents a different mode of spellcasting, and specifically of divination or predestination
- Mnemosyne is patroness of the art of memory, and along with Clio, gathering knowledge of the past
- other subsidiary paths associated with Apollo could be those of Orpheus and Asclepius and his daughters
- have the elves be generally devotees of Apollo and Mnemosyne and her daughters, possibly having the story be that Apollon Mousagetes rather than Zeus is their father as well, or that he's the husband of all of them, with children by ones other than Calliope, Orpheus' mom

Artemis - hunting and tracking, virginity and fertility and childbirth, disease and healing (particularly of pregnancy), wild animals, wilderness - another group of elves could be more closely aligned with her

and so on for Dionysos, Ares, Hermes, Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, Hera, Demeter, Hephaestus, Hestia, Athena, and any others not part of the Dodekatheon you deem important enough or to fill a gap in coverage - maybe Hecate, maybe Helios as distinct from Apollo, maybe Gaea in her own right. That should be enough different paths to cover all bases.

[Refplace]

Ok here is what I have worked up as regards to this.
Keep in mind these are basically elves using a similar template to Basic or Banestorm so all have IQ +1 and magery 0

Additionally there is another major difference
For the energy accumulation rolls a mage can either use the lowest of the path skills in the ritual (-1 per additional path after the first two) or a special Casting Mode skill.
The Casting Mode skills are named after the 9 Muses and operate using those actions.
Calliope (Epic Poetry) M/VH Use this by reciting an appropriate epic poem aloud and in clear tones.
Clio (History) M/VH Use this by reciting some history appropriate to the desired ritual.
Melpomene (Tragedy); Thalia (Comedy); Polyhymnia (Hymns, Choral Poetry) are all M/VH and special in that you cannot use them alone but need to put together a group to preform them. The caster does not participate or direct during the ritual performance but meditates and concentrates on it and possibly the audience.
Erato (Love Poetry) M/VH Use this by reciting an appropriate love poem aloud and in clear tones.
Euterpe (Song and or flute) M/VH Use this by singing or playing a musical instrument with appropriate music for the ritual. Other instruments can be used at a penalty which you can buy off as as an average technique.
Terpsichore (Dance) M/VH Use this by dancing as appropriate to the ritual.
Urania (Astronomy, Divination) M/VH Use this by drafting an appropriate star chart or horoscope and meditating on it.
Note that it is ok to be fairly liberal as to what is appropriate. It must help set the right mood more then anything and does not have to be a poem or song saying exactly waht you are trying to do. However you do get extra points for style the better the fit and Kayans love to do things with style! It is also important to note that the above are not the performance skills (which you must succeed at but typically only have to roll once per ritual). Instead they are a form of physic meditation allowing you to channel the energy while you preform.
While doing the above you may roll after every 5 minutes (seconds with the Ritual Adept advantage) and if successful get some energy (see Monster Hunters 1: Champions, p 36)

Kayans thus have additional skills to learn compared to others who use similar magic but this affords them an enhanced ability to draw energy for their rituals. Since every kayan also has at least magery 0 and this is the most common magic system they use they also are often able to draw from others using larger ceremonial rituals.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Gef

Why, with a ritual for each muse, and a technique for each ritual?

GEF

Honestly? Becasue I have a hard time coming up with enough good rituals for each one.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Even if it's not planetary correspondences, you could still break things down according to the Olympians and some other major figures, supposing that the Muses and Mnemosyne exist in that context with the Muses associated with Apollo.

I may use other Gods, so far only Mneysomne (Memory and mind) is a definite and the 5 Chinese elements. Already that makes them pretty broad, not sure to leave it that way or further subdivide it. 6 paths vs. the default 9 but a few things are missing like Undead, Chance and Crossroads.
So need to decide do I make this more powerful and flexible or leave it more nature and element based.
I also considered making the casting modes M/H instead of M/VH like a path which would give them an effective +1. They get a possible discount on some spells using multiple paths but also have to buy a separate skill and the performance skill as well. And make a roll at it and do some extra prep work.
In particular setting up a play would be a lot of work and I suspect only done for mass magic of some kind.

Oh since were discusing alternate paths....
For comparision
Paths:
RPM
Body, Chance, Crossroads, Energy, Magic, Matter, Mind, Spirit, Undead.
Vampire Think of the VtM Discipline system replaced by RPM with the following paths.
Bacchus, Bala, Deimos, Fenris, Juno, Leto, Lilith, Orion, Poseidon, Proteus, Set
Kaya
Earth, Fire, Memory, Metal, Water, Wood
Note that the elements have symbolic matches as well its not just the actual element.

Gnomes use a system called Power tapping which I have yet to work out all the details but their gem magic is going to use RPM, Symbol magic or some combination. Plus modular abilities.
I think this will cover all the variant RPM systems in the world, leaving another dozen or more other systems. I like the kitchen sink approach :)

[Gef]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Honestly? Becasue I have a hard time coming up with enough good rituals for each one.

!

In a system where you have a "Path of the Muses" with at least ONE ritual for each muse, minimum nine rituals each with a clear theme, you'd have too much trouble coming up with the rituals?

I'll bet the forum could help.

EDIT: Off the top of my head:

Calliope (epic poetry): Heroic Attribute - confers some quality of a legendary hero upon the subject
Clio (history): Doomed to Repeat It - subject has a destiny based on an historical event
Melpomene (tragedy): Tragic Flaw - reduces the chance of self control for the subject's disadvantages
Thalia (comedy): Comedy of Error - the subject suffers effects that are like the Serendipity advantage, but reversed
Erato (lyric and love poetry): Personal Meaning - effectively emotion control as subject relates to a poem
Polyhymnia (choral poetry): Siren Song - subject is Awed.
Euterpe (flute playing): Birdsong - caster can address and control birds
Terpsichore (dance): Dancing Curse - subject dances irresistably into exhaustion and maybe death
Urania (astronomy): Astrological Divination - the caster gains knowledge of the present or future from heavenly portents, especially about the destinies of heroes, kings, and nations

That's nine rituals, a respectable quantity, thematically united by the muses and yet as diverse as book magic spells might be. A devotée of Urania in particular would buy up her corresponding technique and be known as a diviner, not so much as an emotion controller.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Gef

Calliope (epic poetry): Heroic Attribute - confers some quality of a legendary hero upon the subject
Clio (history): Doomed to Repeat It - subject has a destiny based on an historical event
Melpomene (tragedy): Tragic Flaw - reduces the chance of self control for the subject's disadvantages
Thalia (comedy): Comedy of Error - the subject suffers effects that are like the Serendipity advantage, but reversed
Erato (lyric and love poetry): Personal Meaning - effectively emotion control as subject relates to a poem
Polyhymnia (choral poetry): Siren Song - subject is Awed.
Euterpe (flute playing): Birdsong - caster can address and control birds
Terpsichore (dance): Dancing Curse - subject dances irresistably into exhaustion and maybe death
Urania (astronomy): Astrological Divination - the caster gains knowledge of the present or future from heavenly portents, especially about the destinies of heroes, kings, and nations

Some other suggestions that occur to me (not that there's any of these that's not good!):

Calliope: Heroic Resolve: Rebuilds the morale of a group of adventurers by reminding them of the difficulties some past hero faced and overcame (see for example Sam reminding Frodo of Beren's quest for a silmaril when they were in the passes of Mordor)
Clio: True History: Grants the benefits of Psychometry with respect to an object or document
Erato: Cupid's Dart: Makes the target susceptible to passionate love for the next person they see (probably should be limited to their actual sexual orientation)—as a mechanic, perhaps not outright mind control but a +8 reaction modifier
Terpsichore: Dancer's Grace: Enhances the target's DX

Bill Stoddard

[Refplace]

Been thinking about this and several of your suggestions for rituals are very nice. And there definitely is room for some, question was was there enough for a whole path? And was that the way to go to get the feeling I wanted and make the Kayan way look and feel different in play then the other systems.

I really like using the Muses as modes.
However adding them as Paths is also good.
Something that occurs to me is I can do both and it actually is not less of a balance then the mode issue itself.
The Path skill is what you use to make your energy roll in RAW so for that path it determines the rituals and the energy you get. So a Muse being a path and a mode is no net change for the one path. Well except the modes are typically harder to use then just concentrating.

Since I want to make them modes I lose nothing by also making them paths.
Adding 9 paths is a lot but no one has to take them all and each is fairly limited compared to many of the paths from Monster Hunters 1: Champions.

This also settles the issue of keeping them M/VH as now they definitely need to be.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Gef

!

Calliope (epic poetry): Heroic Attribute - confers some quality of a legendary hero upon the subject
Clio (history): Doomed to Repeat It - subject has a destiny based on an historical event
Melpomene (tragedy): Tragic Flaw - reduces the chance of self control for the subject's disadvantages
Thalia (comedy): Comedy of Error - the subject suffers effects that are like the Serendipity advantage, but reversed
Erato (lyric and love poetry): Personal Meaning - effectively emotion control as subject relates to a poem
Polyhymnia (choral poetry): Siren Song - subject is Awed.
Euterpe (flute playing): Birdsong - caster can address and control birds
Terpsichore (dance): Dancing Curse - subject dances irresistably into exhaustion and maybe death
Urania (astronomy): Astrological Divination - the caster gains knowledge of the present or future from heavenly portents, especially about the destinies of heroes, kings, and nations

Originally Posted by whswhs

Some other suggestions that occur to me (not that there's any of these that's not good!):

Calliope: Heroic Resolve: Rebuilds the morale of a group of adventurers by reminding them of the difficulties some past hero faced and overcame (see for example Sam reminding Frodo of Beren's quest for a silmaril when they were in the passes of Mordor)
Clio: True History: Grants the benefits of Psychometry with respect to an object or document
Erato: Cupid's Dart: Makes the target susceptible to passionate love for the next person they see (probably should be limited to their actual sexual orientation)—as a mechanic, perhaps not outright mind control but a +8 reaction modifier
Terpsichore: Dancer's Grace: Enhances the target's DX

Bill Stoddard

Either of you guys mind if I write up sample rituals using your ideas and putting them in the notes? Credited as Geff and Bill Stoddard?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Either of you guys mind if I write up sample rituals using your ideas and putting them in the notes? Credited as Geff and Bill Stoddard?

Please use "William H. Stoddard," as that's the form of my name I use on my books. Other than that, go for it! Glad to have been helpful.

Bill Stoddard

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Please use "William H. Stoddard," as that's the form of my name I use on my books. Other than that, go for it! Glad to have been helpful.

Bill Stoddard

Thank you and saved to my note book.