[RPM] Altered Traits: DR with Absorption

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Huh. Refilling a mana reserve faster seems like it would be okay...let me ask then, can you not heal a ER like you would FP? I've done that in the past without too much issue or abuse. It also makes some iconic magic items impossible to reproduce in RPM...

Edit: Duh. Magic tools. Duh. Hat Goes on Foot. DUH.

This time I have no idea what you mean (with the whole post combined).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by PK

I would never let a trait that was granted via spell be used to refill your mana reserve. That's a clear violation of "magic cannot improve magic" to my eye. (The fact that it's horribly inefficient is beside the point.)

I wonder where's the line between 'restoring' and 'improving'. Refilling the reserve is done through magic. Healing damage is done through magic. Regeneration can heal lost FP/HP/ER. Mana, FP and HP can be used for magic, and are drained in the process. Hmm.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by PK

I would never let a trait that was granted via spell be used to refill your mana reserve. That's a clear violation of "magic cannot improve magic" to my eye. (The fact that it's horribly inefficient is beside the point.)

Magic is already used to restore magic - you gather energy, then absorb it to replenish your ER. The only way I could see this case really being abused is if you have a character stand in a fire while casting a spell, taking from his ER to power the spell as he replenishes it. Simply stating that you can only pull from reserves (HP, FP, ER, etc) once during a casting should be sufficient to prevent this, and also stops any potential abuse from things like Regeneration or allies healing you (which would let you sacrifice HP, regain HP, sacrifice HP, and so forth). Alternatively (and the option I'm going with for my Artificing variant), you could state that, while a spell is being cast, any reserves "tied up" in the casting cannot regenerate at all.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I wonder where's the line between 'restoring' and 'improving'. Refilling the reserve is done through magic. Healing damage is done through magic. Regeneration can heal lost FP/HP/ER. Mana, FP and HP can be used for magic, and are drained in the process. Hmm.

While I don't have a problem with this (see above), I can see three (well, more like 2.5) ways to prevent it if it becomes a problem. The first is to state that HP/FP restored via spells cannot be used to fuel further spells - you'll have to wait until natural/technological healing would have done its thing (with this version, magically healed injury should still be visible and treatable, but not have any negative effects). Once you've burned up your normal allotment, using up further treats you as though you were at negative HP/FP. The second, harsher option is to state that HP/FP sacrificed for energy cannot be magically healed, and must rely on natural/technological healing. The third option would combine the two - HP/FP sacrificed for energy and then restored via magic cannot be used to fuel later spells, until such a time as natural/technological healing "catches up."

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Question: Can injuries sustained from making a Voluntary Sacrifice be healed via magic?

Nope. GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic p. 15 (in header 3 in the box "Stacking Spells") says:

While a spell can add HP or FP to a subject, these cannot be
sacrificed for magical energy.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I thought that afflicting an Absorptive DR in a setting that includes magic will require Transform, since I don't see another way to explain such a transformative effect.

I wouldn't require one because you're granting traits - but the point is moot as I missed a very important aspect here: you cannot use magic to get better at magic. And the more I think about it, the more its so obvious I feel like the guy who doesn't look up in the slasher film right before he gets knifed by the psycho.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The idea is an effect that transforms wounds into energy. So you get wounded less, and get some goodies instead. But in this specific case it's an ongoing effect, expressed in the form of DR (+Absorption). That's the idea. Do I make sense now?

Yes - but as above - it's verboten via the rules unless it's a magical tool (which explicitly does allow magic to make you better). THat said, I did have a dream about this, which was quite pleasant considering it was after the night terror with my dead grandmother's corpse trying to pinch my cheeks with bony fingers. How about a perk that allows warrior-casters to use "small magic" to turn the attacks of their enemies into points of their mana reserve. So something like:

Mystical Shield
Prerequisite: Path of Magic 15+, Active Defense 11+.

Before rolling a Active Defense for any attack, declare that you are using this perk. Proceed normally after that, but if you successfully avoid your enemies attack you gain a number of mana back equal to your excess margin of success. You may only use this once per turn. For example, if you use your Block to avoid a arrow and have a skill of 12 and roll a 6, you get back 6 mana to your reserve. For attacks with multiple hits (like most firearms), this excess margin only kicks in if you avoid all hits. For example, if you have a Dodge of 12 and try to avoid a three shots from a Glock and roll a 8 on your Active Defense, you'd only gain back 1 point of your mana - not four.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

This time I have no idea what you mean (with the whole post combined).

Yeah, that was me trying to hard after nearly 10 hours at a farm and another 9 gaming. Ignore that post.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I wonder where's the line between 'restoring' and 'improving'. Refilling the reserve is done through magic. Healing damage is done through magic. Regeneration can heal lost FP/HP/ER. Mana, FP and HP can be used for magic, and are drained in the process. Hmm.

Actually, there is fuzzy no line - it's quite demarcated. If you regain X through magic you cannot turn around and use X through magic. See the page reference I post above.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Nope. GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic p. 15 (in header 3 in the box "Stacking Spells") says:

[ . . . ]

Yes - but as above - it's verboten via the rules unless it's a magical tool (which explicitly does allow magic to make you better). THat said, I did have a dream about this, which was quite pleasant considering it was after the night terror with my dead grandmother's corpse trying to pinch my cheeks with bony fingers. How about a perk that allows warrior-casters to use "small magic" to turn the attacks of their enemies into points of their mana reserve. So something like:

Mystical Shield
Prerequisite: Path of Magic 15+, Active Defense 11+.

Before rolling a Active Defense for any attack, declare that you are using this perk. Proceed normally after that, but if you successfully avoid your enemies attack you gain a number of mana back equal to your excess margin of success. You may only use this once per turn. For example, if you use your Block to avoid a arrow and have a skill of 12 and roll a 6, you get back 6 mana to your reserve. For attacks with multiple hits (like most firearms), this excess margin only kicks in if you avoid all hits. For example, if you have a Dodge of 12 and try to avoid a three shots from a Glock and roll a 8 on your Active Defense, you'd only gain back 1 point of your mana - not four.

Hmm. I definitely will consider either making a similarly themed Rules Exemption Style Perk for some styles, or houserule-waive the rule for certain specific exception. I think the idea of a mana-absorbing shield, leeching etc. are way too cool and not powerful enough to forbid entirely.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Actually, there is fuzzy no line - it's quite demarcated. If you regain X through magic you cannot turn around and use X through magic. See the page reference I post above.

Uh, you use magic to fill your Mana Reserve (p. 21). You also use magic to expand a place of magical power, add magical traits that have been removed,

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Hmm. I definitely will consider either making a similarly themed Rules Exemption Style Perk for some styles, or houserule-waive the rule for certain specific exception. I think the idea of a mana-absorbing shield, leeching etc. are way too cool and not powerful enough to forbid entirely.

It might be balanced for a single spell cast in a specific style's methods as a perk or even a secret spell. I don't know. I'd have to see it.

Uh, you use magic to fill your Mana Reserve (p. 21). You also use magic to expand a place of magical power, add magical traits that have been removed,[/QUOTE]

You use Path of Magic to refill your reserve -you don't use magic to fill it. Path of Magic used like this is more like a specific form of Meditation or Breath Control. You are opening yourself to the magic, not casting a spell to draw magic in. If you were casting that would need a spell effect and seeing as it doesn't it therefore is not magic helping magic. Places of power is magic in permanent form which is explicitly allowed. Not sure what you mean by "add magical traits" though.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

You use Path of Magic to refill your reserve -you don't use magic to fill it. Path of Magic used like this is more like a specific form of Meditation or Breath Control. You are opening yourself to the magic, not casting a spell to draw magic in. If you were casting that would need a spell effect and seeing as it doesn't it therefore is not magic helping magic.

Originally Posted by RPM10

Lesser Create Magic is also used to refill a
mana reserve, and Greater Create Magic is also used for Slow
and Sure enchanting

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Places of power is magic in permanent form which is explicitly allowed.

Yeah, but the point is that expanding them is a form of magic improving magic.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Not sure what you mean by "add magical traits" though.

If someone removes a magical trait from me, somebody else can add it back with Lesser Restore Magic.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Yeah, but the point is that expanding them is a form of magic improving magic.

That's actually a good point, I'm pretty sure the Lesser Create Magic effect is basically allowing you to fill someone else's reserve using your skill so you can get a effect like a Lend Energy spell - so a exception to the general rule. The Greater Create Magic effect for enchanted items is also a exception, how is are you going to get magic items? You read stuff way to literally sometimes and I think it causes you to overthink - at least that's a outsider's view looking in. The guy who made the system already said that you can't really do what you want by the RAW rules...but that doesn't mean you can't do it. If you want to do it that way, then awesome, that's how it works now. Let me know how it goes because I'd be keenly interested.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

If someone removes a magical trait from me, somebody else can add it back with Lesser Restore Magic.

Ahh, yes. But you're not improving magic - you are simply removing the spell that suppressed your ability to begin with.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

The guy who made the system already said that you can't really do what you want by the RAW rules...but that doesn't mean you can't do it. If you want to do it that way, then awesome, that's how it works now. Let me know how it goes because I'd be keenly interested.

Sure, that's the RAW and that's the houserule. It'll probably take a year or two until I actually playtest it (if even so - the energy requirement might prevent anyone from trying), but I'll report if I don't forget by then.

I do still think that rules-and-exceptions of RPM are fuzzy and somewhat illogical, even if balanced.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Sure, that's the RAW and that's the houserule. It'll probably take a year or two until I actually playtest it (if even so - the energy requirement might prevent anyone from trying), but I'll report if I don't forget by then.

I do still think that rules-and-exceptions of RPM are fuzzy and somewhat illogical, even if balanced.

As I've said before: with any balanced flexible system you're going to get edge-cases that are fuzzy. It's inevitable. Hopefully, one day I'll be allowed to write a "RPM Companion" and maybe clear that up a bit for folks. :-)