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Old 07-02-2012, 01:14 AM   #21
Gef
 
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Default Re: Hand-and-a-Half

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Originally Posted by CousinX View Post
Hand-and-a-Half
Skills: Broadsword, Two-Handed Sword.
Why not make it Broadsword, and add the perk Weapon Adaptation (use Bastard Sword or Longsword in two-handed grip with Broadsword skill)? The requirements for Weapon Adaptation are a default no greater than -4 and that the adapted weapon be gripped with the same number of hands as the primary weapon of the base skill, and since broadswords take both hands in a Defensive Grip, you can take this perk to use two-handed swords with Broadsword skill but not vice versa. This gets the effect you want with Two as One. Sheer Muscle seems fine, a straightforward renaming of Attribute Substitution.

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Old 07-02-2012, 01:23 AM   #22
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Default Re: DF: Forgotten Realms Martial-Arts Styles

Thinking more about remise...it is some variant of Rapid Strike, clearly. So I would say start by declaring that you are making an attack which will put you in position to execute a remise. Not all conceivable attacks would do this, so you are setting it up in a way that takes skill, and you can't just whiff and claim a do-over, which would be the mechanic for luck. I'd call the stipulation of failing the first attack worse than that for Dual Attack as it absolutely prevents any possibility of landing two blows, so instead of your -3, which is what a cinematic fighter takes for a basic Rapid Strike, how about -2, but this penalty applies to BOTH the initial attack and the remise. An argument has been presented that you may also be able take advantage of an opening now that your foe has already committed to his parry; I'd call that Counterattack in conjunction with Remise. Will that do?

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Old 07-02-2012, 03:07 PM   #23
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Default Re: DF: Forgotten Realms Martial-Arts Styles

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Here's an example from the martial arts styles in my fantasy campaign, based on the real-world diestro fencing style
[...]
Scientific Swordsmanship (8)
Hmm... very interesting. I'm not aware of any group in the canonical FR setting that fits the bill for this style. But, since they're a secret society, they could easily be dropped in behind the scenes. I noticed the style has a few Imbuements among the optional skills as well, which I'm definitely folding in to certain styles.


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I especially like Technique Focus, because under ordinary circumstances, it's only cost-effective to raise a couple of techniques. That does a good job differentiating between two students of one style but a poor job distinguishing students of different styles that use the same base skills. With Technique Focus, you get a couple of techniques that are your best choices, but a few more that you favor. Most of the styles I designed for my fantasy campaign have half a dozen techniques per skill, to be eligible for use with the quirk.
Yeah, I've always been a bit troubled by how techniques work in 4e ... it's simply not cost-effective to be good at more than one or two per skill, and yet many RAW styles have long lists of closely-related techniques, which a skilled practitioner should be able to get good at as a body without throwing away points.


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Originally Posted by Gef View Post
Why not make it Broadsword, and add the perk Weapon Adaptation (use Bastard Sword or Longsword in two-handed grip with Broadsword skill)? The requirements for Weapon Adaptation are a default no greater than -4 and that the adapted weapon be gripped with the same number of hands as the primary weapon of the base skill, and since broadswords take both hands in a Defensive Grip, you can take this perk to use two-handed swords with Broadsword skill but not vice versa. This gets the effect you want with Two as One. Sheer Muscle seems fine, a straightforward renaming of Attribute Substitution.
If that's legal, it's definitely more cost-efficient than what I've got ... and I guess if their example of Knife to Halberd is allowable as a "cinematic" trait, then Broadsword and Two-Handed Sword is well within bounds in a cinematic style.


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Originally Posted by Gef View Post
Thinking more about remise...it is some variant of Rapid Strike, clearly. So I would say start by declaring that you are making an attack which will put you in position to execute a remise. Not all conceivable attacks would do this, so you are setting it up in a way that takes skill, and you can't just whiff and claim a do-over, which would be the mechanic for luck. I'd call the stipulation of failing the first attack worse than that for Dual Attack as it absolutely prevents any possibility of landing two blows, so instead of your -3, which is what a cinematic fighter takes for a basic Rapid Strike, how about -2, but this penalty applies to BOTH the initial attack and the remise. An argument has been presented that you may also be able take advantage of an opening now that your foe has already committed to his parry; I'd call that Counterattack in conjunction with Remise. Will that do?

vierasmarius also thought that the mechanics for Counterattack would be useful. If so, maybe it could be two techniques chained together:

Remise (H) Fencing Skill-2; Cannot exceed base skill: Make a "Remise-elligible" All-Out or Committed Attack (i.e. take the technique penalty to your sword skill on the initial attack), and if you miss or the target defends, make an identical second attack at the same penalty. If (and only if) you've bought the technique up to full sword skill, you can elect to make a Remise on any failed All-Out or Committed Attack, as long as you didn't do anything that would prevent you making a Rapid Strike (e.g. Dual-Weapon Attack, already made a Rapid Strike, etc).

Advanced Remise (H) Remise-5; Cannot exceed Remise: Same as Remise, but by taking the full penalty for Advanced Remise on your initial and follow-up attacks, you impose a penalty to the target's defenses as though you'd made a successful Counterattack, on the second attack only (which still only occurs if the first attack fails).

Last edited by CousinX; 07-02-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:25 PM   #24
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Default Re: DF: Forgotten Realms Martial-Arts Styles

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Yeah, I've always been a bit troubled by how techniques work in 4e ... it's simply not cost-effective to be good at more than one or two per skill, and yet many RAW styles have long lists of closely-related techniques, which a skilled practitioner should be able to get good at as a body without throwing away points.
The things is that since a technique defaults to the core skill your going to get good at the techniques by raising it. So the various techniques are mostly an example of how a stylist fights with an optional specialty.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: DF: Forgotten Realms Martial-Arts Styles

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The things is that since a technique defaults to the core skill your going to get good at the techniques by raising it. So the various techniques are mostly an example of how a stylist fights with an optional specialty.
Sure, and it works ... most characters probably won't have more than one or two signature moves per skill that they routinely use anyway.

But what about the cinematic kickboxer who's studied kicking in all its aspects, to the point of neglecting hand strikes? He's mastered not only the routine Kicking technique, but several of the dozen-or-more special kicks -- even just Kicking, Jump Kick, Flying Jump Kick, and Spinning Kick, not an unreasonable line-up for a cinematic karateka. But unless he wants to literally waste points on all those Hard techniques, he has no choice but to raise his overall Karate skill, hand strikes and all.

It's certainly not a game-breaker, nor even a fun-ruiner for me ... it just bugs me a bit, is all.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:31 PM   #26
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Default Re: DF: Forgotten Realms Martial-Arts Styles

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Sure, and it works ... most characters probably won't have more than one or two signature moves per skill that they routinely use anyway.

But what about the cinematic kickboxer who's studied kicking in all its aspects, to the point of neglecting hand strikes? He's mastered not only the routine Kicking technique, but several of the dozen-or-more special kicks -- even just Kicking, Jump Kick, Flying Jump Kick, and Spinning Kick, not an unreasonable line-up for a cinematic karateka. But unless he wants to literally waste points on all those Hard techniques, he has no choice but to raise his overall Karate skill, hand strikes and all.

It's certainly not a game-breaker, nor even a fun-ruiner for me ... it just bugs me a bit, is all.
This is where some of us break out our "Punch, Kick, Grapple, Joint Manipulation" breakout of how we'd do generic striking and grappling if given the option to do so. :-)

The "punch" vs "kick" breakdown has been pretty universally given the nod as a nice way to alternatively do things. My pairing of 'grapple' and 'joint lock' is one way, but there are a few other ways to look at things, each of which have merit.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:38 PM   #27
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Default Re: DF: Forgotten Realms Martial-Arts Styles

Not FR, but surely a delver or three should master the art of fighting with Spear and Magic Helmet. Probably Bards of the Operatic sort. Love/Hate relationship with Rabbits optional. :)
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Old 07-02-2012, 09:21 PM   #28
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Default Re: DF: Forgotten Realms Martial-Arts Styles

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This is where some of us break out our "Punch, Kick, Grapple, Joint Manipulation" breakout of how we'd do generic striking and grappling if given the option to do so. :-)

The "punch" vs "kick" breakdown has been pretty universally given the nod as a nice way to alternatively do things. My pairing of 'grapple' and 'joint lock' is one way, but there are a few other ways to look at things, each of which have merit.
Hmm ... so, get rid of the existing unarmed skills altogether, and replace them with something like Grappling (DX/A), Joint Locks (DX/H), Kicking (DX/H), and Punching (DX/E)?


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Not FR, but surely a delver or three should master the art of fighting with Spear and Magic Helmet. Probably Bards of the Operatic sort. Love/Hate relationship with Rabbits optional. :)
Techniques: Flying Lunge (Spear), Head Butt (Magic Helmet gives +2 damage!).
Perks: Skill Adaptation (Singing Feint).
Optional Twaits: Higher Purpose ("Get that wascally wabbit!").
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Old 07-02-2012, 09:23 PM   #29
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Default Re: DF: Forgotten Realms Martial-Arts Styles

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Originally Posted by CousinX View Post
Yeah, I've always been a bit troubled by how techniques work in 4e ... it's simply not cost-effective to be good at more than one or two per skill, and yet many RAW styles have long lists of closely-related techniques, which a skilled practitioner should be able to get good at as a body without throwing away points.
So, to simplify my notion of skill limitation quirks, bundle it into a metatrait: For 3 points, you get +1 to all techniques that your style teaches for a particular skill. There's no reason to tell players that they just bought a skill level and a quirk.

There's no hard and fast reason to limit the bonus to half a dozen techniques, except that I like the differentiation. I do allow a Style Adaptation perk to relieve that restriction.

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Old 07-02-2012, 09:34 PM   #30
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Default Re: DF: Forgotten Realms Martial-Arts Styles

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I noticed the style has a few Imbuements among the optional skills as well, which I'm definitely folding in to certain styles.
Yes, many of my styles have one to four imbuements. Most of the ones that have them, have them at each level. In other words, a novice probably has Imbuement 1 with One Skill Only, Ghostly Weapon*. Then he picks up Imbuement 2 with Two Skills Only, etc, as he develops. Many Imbuements are unique to one style, especially at level 3, for instance Scientific Swordsmanship is the only style in my campaign that gets Penetrating Strike without a restriction.

There just aren't enough level 2 imbuements, so I use limited versions of level 3, like Crippling Blow for Stunning only, Penetrating Strike which can at best shift the armor divisor one rung: trident to 1, bodkin to 3, most other weapons to 2.

GEF

*My campaign has a supernatural awareness skill, Per/VH, with prerequisites of either Blindfighting (for cinematic martial artists), or any supernatural advantage (for wizards and werewolves). It works like Detect (Supernatural) with some houserule modifiers (vampires detect other vampires readily, powerful high-point-value abilities can be more detectable). Supernatural Awareness helps you sense the kinds of things that you need Ghostly Weapon to hit.

Last edited by Gef; 07-03-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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