Updating the vampire

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

Kromm made the following post on regaining HP with Unhealing. So, unfortunately, Regeneration and Unhealing cannot be combined.

I don't see anything there contradicting the idea that rewiring Regeneration into a self-Healing advantage being problematic. It isn't vanilla regeneration, adding limitations and enhancements changes the practical meaning of an advantage. It is basically "Healing (self-only)" in everything but name.

Even with that said, the only thing that ultimately matters is that an ability or set of abilities is balanced. 70 points for the Leech+Blood pool is if anything point-ineffective. Especially since you could just buy

Extra Hp 20 (massless, +0%) [40]
Leech (Blood Agent, -40%; Accelerated, +25%) [28]
Sharp Teeth [1]
Unhealing (partial) [-20]
Total 49

Better in pretty much every way. Heck you could even stick a limitation on the HP stating that it acts only to refill your hp as a gradual overhealing, probably that would be worth about -20%.

Heck, you could even add Energy Reserves 20 (Special Recharge, Leech, -70%, Alternate Abillity to Extra HP 20, x0.2)) [3.6] and let the player pick if he wants to use the "pool" as ER or HP.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is:
A) That the ability makes sense, is readable, etc. Going against the spirit of a dis/advantage would be a problem here of course.
B) The ability isn't over/underpowered or otherwise disruptive to your gaming sessions when possessed by a player character.

For A, well, Unhealing (Partial) is intended as a disadvantage for characters who find healing difficult, and being dependent on a Blood-Pool buffer for healing is difficult, so the disadvantage fits.

As far as "B" goes I will often even go as far as to offer discounts on vanilla disadvantages in my campaigns. Jumper (Planar) has a base cost of 30 in one of my settings because there is only one other plane and because the ability is common enough that you'll often find yourself tracked and followed by the people/creatures you really want to escape, entities which are often more powerful there (spirits/demons/gods are in their true form there). That plane is also often very dangerous and rarely that useful to visit. So basically Jumper in that campaign is far inferior as a get-out-of-jail-card to something like Insubstantiality. The biggest reason to have it is to get someone who got dragged there back, or taking a huge risk by trying to contact some native spirit in person.

Edit: If I where to put the blood-pool to use in a game I'd probably drop the cost of that 20-energy bundle to about [50 points total] and increase the ER->HP conversion rate to Blood Pool/10 or something. Roughly making it [20 points] for ER which somewhat scales up 'regen' with level. [-20 points] for awkward healing. [20 points] for Leech. And [20 points] for one-way turning your ER into HP at decent speed. That would turn "Heals by Blood Pool" into a [0 points] advantage, and each point of "Blood Reserves" would cost [1 point/level]. Simple enough for the players. Unlikely to break balance in any way. Even in a Hack'n'Slash vampires can rarely recharge after every fight. Every now and then you end up fighting blood-less zombies, skeletons, and liches for a week.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

I don't see anything there contradicting the idea that rewiring Regeneration into a self-Healing advantage being problematic. It isn't vanilla regeneration, adding limitations and enhancements changes the practical meaning of an advantage. It is basically "Healing (self-only)" in everything but name.

You may find the thread that quote is from informative.

I PMd Kromm in relation to my question posted in that thread and quoting from his response: "Unhealing really only exists to let you create beings that don't roll HT daily, or use Regeneration, to get HP back."

And the following quote may also be useful.

Originally Posted by Kromm

The OP already knew about the special case:

I know there's Partial Unhealing, but that only works with Regeneration if its very restricted (e.g. only immersed in blood or fire or something), and would be unfair as a combo with unrestricted Regeneration (or, for that matter, a Regen based on a power source like Magic or Psi that is almost always on).

That seemed to suggest that the question was about the general case. That said, the acknowledgment contained the answer when it comes to the special case, which is that Regeneration limited enough to work less readily than ordinary healing is absolutely compatible with Unhealing (Partial). That's why Unhealing (Partial) says this:

You can heal naturally if a rare condition is met (e.g., when you are immersed in blood or bathed in lava). You can also heal yourself by stealing HP from others using Vampiric Bite (p. 96), magic, or psionics.

Regeneration with an extreme Accessibility limitation is fine, and may well even be "magic or psionics." As always in GURPS, the special case overrides the blanket rule.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

You may find the thread that quote is from informative.

I PMd Kromm in relation to my question posted in that thread and quoting from his response: "Unhealing really only exists to let you create beings that don't roll HT daily, or use Regeneration, to get HP back."

And the following quote may also be useful.

Only to recover health based on how much blood I've stolen is very restrictive. And it keeps with the spirit, even if you can argue it has some disagreement with the letter, of Unhealing (Limited).

I really don't see the point of this argument in general. You seem to be arguing RAW, but like I've said my interest in RAW is secondary at best. Besides we literally have Rule-0 as part of the RAW; arguing against and overwriting the RAW is literally RAW-legal and encouraged.

Like I said, the only thing I care about is it being balanced for play, and earlier that write-up is definitely not overpowered. I'd allow it if a player suggested it as well.

Besides, what is the point of slaving to the exact letter of the RAW when RAW lets you create stuff like this: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=216. No sane GM would ever permit that (RAW-legal) abillity. But frankly, GURPS is full of much subtler imbalances, which is why I think GM-judgement is necessary the moment players want to start tinkering with abilities. This is the almost inevitable problem when build an universal system like GURPS.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

No sane GM would ever permit that (RAW-legal) abillity.

It isn't. Emanation is incompatible with Rapid-Fire, for reasons that should be obvious.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

It isn't. Emanation is incompatible with Rapid-Fire, for reasons that should be obvious.

It has Selective Area and a universe-sized area-of-effect so it doesn't really need it in the first place. We're just splitting hairs now; the ability is busted beyond belief.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

It has Selective Area and a universe-sized area-of-effect so it doesn't really need it in the first place. We're just splitting hairs now; the ability is busted beyond belief.

I don't know, I see a very large difference between a 50-point ability that lets you inconvenience the universe (or a many-hundred-point ability that lets you actually destroy the universe) vs a 50-point ability that lets you destroy the universe.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

I don't know, I see a very large difference between a 50-point ability that lets you inconvenience the universe (or a many-hundred-point ability that lets you actually destroy the universe) vs a 50-point ability that lets you destroy the universe.

It hits 300 times per second. You would literally kill any or every living thing which doesn't have Cosmic DR, or f.ex. 300 hp and Extreme Regeneration, etc.

Even if it didn't hit 300 times/second it takes people 2 days to regain a lost hp on average, and you can fire the ability once per second.

We're really drifting off topic now though. Do I really need to persuade you that it is possible to create outrageously busted stuff whilst sticking to the RAW? GURPS was written by people, not gods.

[SolemnGolem]

I don't know if this is helpful, but the stat-up for the Lich (in both DFRPG and GURPS DF) has a partial form of Unhealing, and it is suspended only when the lich's Unkillable 3 advantage is triggered. Could a Vampire have "Unhealing (partial; heals normally or with Leech only during bloodsucking)"?

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by SolemnGolem

I don't know if this is helpful, but the stat-up for the Lich (in both DFRPG and GURPS DF) has a partial form of Unhealing, and it is suspended only when the lich's Unkillable 3 advantage is triggered. Could a Vampire have "Unhealing (partial; heals normally or with Leech only during bloodsucking)"?

Probably. I figure Unhealing is probably built up of something like:

---------------------------------

Truly Unhealing [-50]
You cannot heal by any] means with the exception of godlike power or something which specifically suspends this disadvantage. F.ex. an Affliction which removes Truly Unhealing. Without limitations this trait is suitable mostly to those suffering divine curses, since even inanimate objects can be repaired to some degree.

Mitigation, rare: You can be healed, but only through significant effort and/or expense. e.g. A robot can be repaired by using specialized magic or a mechanic if the right replacement parts are available, a zombie can be stitched back together by specialized magic or a surgeon replacing body-parts, etc. You should not possess means to directly heal yourself. -40% (This is what is called Unhealing in GURPS Characters)

Mitigation, Uncommon: You can be healed, but it requires difficult circumstances, or magic. e.g. A revenant who can heal only in a coffin with dirt from their homeland, a magma elemental which can only heal when immersed in molten rock. As per the above version you can still be healed by others using magic and similar abilities. Difficult to-use healing abilities such as "Leech" are also valid. -60% (This is what is called Unhealing (Partial) in GURPS Characters)

---------------------------------

Well, realistically it was ported from 3rd edition, which is why it is one of those traits with strange notes about "psionics" and such. But the point is, you can always use limitations and the like to get your desired effect. A lich ignoring its "Unhealing, Partial", f.ex. The things that makes adding mitigation to unhealing strange is that it already has a bunch of built in mitigation methods.

[AlexanderHowl]

Honestly, it is much simpler to just build a vampire that has Regeneration rather than Unhealing (Partial). Dependency (Human Blood; Monthly; Illegal) [-10] would be a more acurate depiction of their need for human blood or alternatively, you could have them take Terminally Ill (2 years; Mitigator, Human Blood, Monthly, -70%) [-15] (older vampires might require more frequently feeding and/or be closer to annihilation).