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Old 10-06-2020, 05:16 PM   #41
Sorenant
 
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Default Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?

I'm fan of Sorcery, I've used it many times and it always worked nicely.
Currently though I'm quite interested on College Ritual Book Magic by mlangsdorf. It seems like a balanced, fun and flavorful way of doing magic that takes the best of the various magic systems. I'm still pondering about it but I think it meshes very well with the idea presented by this article about making magic users feel more mystical.

I'm not much fan of RPM though. I like some aspects of it like charms that rewards careful preparation and the entire ritual path specialist article from Pyramid, but I find it hard to make work in real play.

Other than that, I've thought about refluffing the Super Gadgeteer by PK into a magic user. Like charms from RPM, I believe it could give the player a powerful tool to deal with challenges they planned for without giving the power to solve every problem that they come across.

Last edited by Sorenant; 10-06-2020 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 10-06-2020, 05:17 PM   #42
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Default Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
IIRC, and I might not, it's just the general "alchemical talisman" rule applied to paut in particular.
As I understand it, it is, and in a way I'm not sure follows the rules.
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Old 10-06-2020, 06:33 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Thaum has option to avoid the magery reqs if you have ritual magic like headley, just take a -2 penalty instead of the magery.
I know of "Non-mages can work Path/Book magic – but not well! They’re at -5 on all ritual rolls." (Thaum p. 123) But I missed rule regarding improving magery itself. Where is it so I can add it to the GURPSwiki.

Regarding Professor William Headley, he has both Ritual Magic (Hermetic)-17 and Thaumatology-14. No idea why Thaumatology isn't at 17 eliminating the need for Ritual Magic.

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Why would you be using slow and sure when you could be using quick and easy?
Who has 20 energy just sitting around?

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Or, apples to oranges here, if you want 1-shot mana (like paut) then why use Powerstone instead of Manastone? That's cheaper and easier to do using Quick and Dirty. Paut is even called liquid manastone...
For some reason Classic: Cabal, p. 107 and Classic: Egypt, p. 92 state that Paut is called a liquid powerstone.

Besides as the GURPSwiki points out:
"This spell is effectively a Mug's Game. Anyone using it is using 5 energy to be able to use 1 energy once later. Sure, it takes 20 mage-days to make a Powerstone but the mage will eventually see a return on the energy investment in a normal mana setting in 20 days and any mana level below that makes spell based enchantment rare if not impractical.
The spell cannot even be justified in settings where Powerstone doesn't exist as the energy in vs energy out ratio is total crap. The Paut elixir is a better investment."

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ah wait, I thought you were just talking about normal Paut... I think I missed something here.

Is this a homebrew? Can't seem to find canon rules for paut talismans...
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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
As I understand it, it is, and in a way I'm not sure follows the rules.
Everything regarding Paut Talismans is by the RAW. Heck, I started out the piece with a link to the GURPSwiki: Paul Talisman

The page explains everything and cites where the rules are coming from.

"In Talisman form Paut will act like a Powerstone with a fixed "recharge" rate regardless of energy (3 (2.86) days in Low mana, 2 (1.42) days in Normal and High mana, and 1 (0.71) day in very high mana). They take 100 days to make and like all Alchemic Talismans must be worn to come out of dormancy.
Alchemy-20 with Technique (Paut Talisman, multiple doses) 5 will be able to produce a 6 dose (6 energy) Paut Talisman every 100 days in a normal mana area with the same amount of success as an enchanter making a quirkless 1 energy Powerstone."

The method uses what amounts to several loopholes in the rules.
1) There is nothing about no “time to cast,” (ie no time to consume) not applying to Talismans
2) There is nothing about downing multiple doses of an elixir. Paut is the only one where this means anything.
3) There is nothing about using multiple Alchemical talismans together. So you can use as many you can wear.

If you really want to give the players nightmares have a Mandarin want-a-be running around with 10 Paut Talismans (as rings)... each one with 1,000 energy.

As the flavor text on the GURPSwik page goes:

Crazed mage: Powerstones? I don't need no stinking Powerstones. Eat magic powered by Paut Talismans! FOOM.
Fighter (behind cover): I thought he used up the rings a while ago.
Thief: He did. Appears that he has a lot more of those things.
Crazed mage: Rings? I have more then rings. I have chokers, I have necklaces, I have arm bands, I have...
Fighter: Just how many of these Paut Talismans does this maniac have?!
Thief: Too freaking many in my book
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Last edited by maximara; 10-06-2020 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 10-06-2020, 07:29 PM   #44
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Default Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?

My current (And now-preferred) magic style is a "magic as powers" method based heavily on Divine Favor.

Basically, every spell college (Such as Lightning, Pain, Fire, Movement, etc) has its own power modifier, often with some optional traits that an individual practitioner can choose (One character took "Dramatic" with her lightning magic; brings down the cost slightly, but means she's never subtle or stealthy with it!). Then there's the primary spell, generally something of broad utility that is emblematic of the magic (Create Lightning, in the case of lightning magic), and then a whole list of secondary skills that can be purchased as alternate abilities off of that. You're also allowed to buy secondary spells up into full (Not alternate) abilities if you want, so you can have multiple spells up at a time (She did so for her Insulate spell, which is DR vs lightning), though they're still limited to no more points than the primary spell. It also convinced me to switch to multiplicative modifiers, since some of the spells-as-powers can stack a large number of enhancements that would otherwise entirely drown out even crippling limitations.

I've experimented with a bunch of different magical systems in GURPS, mostly with spells as powers, but this is the one that I'm most happy with.

I haven't gotten Sorcery, but I have heard that it does something similar to Divine Favor.
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Old 10-06-2020, 08:03 PM   #45
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Default Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Everything regarding Paut Talismans is by the RAW. Heck, I started out the piece with a link to the GURPSwiki: Paul Talisman

The page explains everything and cites where the rules are coming from.

"In Talisman form Paut will act like a Powerstone with a fixed "recharge" rate regardless of energy (3 (2.86) days in Low mana, 2 (1.42) days in Normal and High mana, and 1 (0.71) day in very high mana). They take 100 days to make and like all Alchemic Talismans must be worn to come out of dormancy.
Alchemy-20 with Technique (Paut Talisman, multiple doses) 5 will be able to produce a 6 dose (6 energy) Paut Talisman every 100 days in a normal mana area with the same amount of success as an enchanter making a quirkless 1 energy Powerstone."

The method uses what amounts to several loopholes in the rules.
1) There is nothing about no “time to cast,” (ie no time to consume) not applying to Talismans
2) There is nothing about downing multiple doses of an elixir. Paut is the only one where this means anything.
3) There is nothing about using multiple Alchemical talismans together. So you can use as many you can wear.
I wouldn't say there's nothing about time to use, really. It says you need to will it to work, and doesn't say anything about that taking time...I'd read that as strongly implying free action activation.

2 is true, but I don't think it's a loophole...there's nothing about multiple doses...so by what logic do you conclude that a talisman can deliver multiple doses? Single-dose paut talismans seem by the book, multi-dose seem...highly speculative.

3, yeah.
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Old 10-06-2020, 10:27 PM   #46
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Default Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?

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I know of "Non-mages can work Path/Book magic – but not well! They’re at -5 on all ritual rolls." (Thaum p. 123) But I missed rule regarding improving magery itself. Where is it so I can add it to the GURPSwiki.
Variant Count Calculations (T72-3). The suggested number is +1 to prereq count per full 10 points of non-spell prerequisites.
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Old 10-06-2020, 10:45 PM   #47
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Default Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I wouldn't say there's nothing about time to use, really. It says you need to will it to work, and doesn't say anything about that taking time...I'd read that as strongly implying free action activation.

2 is true, but I don't think it's a loophole...there's nothing about multiple doses...so by what logic do you conclude that a talisman can deliver multiple doses? Single-dose paut talismans seem by the book, multi-dose seem...highly speculative.

3, yeah.
Regarding 2 The only thing that Magic says is that "The method of use of an elixir depends on its form (see below). Multiple elixirs may be used at once, but multiple doses of the same elixir will be wasted except on very large creatures, which may require extra doses at the GM’s discretion. "

However. "Drinking paut restores FP depleted for magical purposes – spellcasting, magical powers, etc. – at the rate of 1 FP per ounce. (...) Once the drinker is at full FP, any excess energy remains available, for magical purposes only, for the next 5 minutes. " (Thau 52) This expressly nullifies the "multiple doses of the same elixir will be wasted" presented in Magic.

"Since paut is liquid, a mage can measure out the amount needed for any spell, without worrying about the distinction between small and large powerstones. " (Egypt p92, Cabal p103)

The only possible limit is the "A wizard can drink an ounce of paut per second, and up to 6xST ounces in any 24-hour period." part but the key word there is "drink" You don't drink an Alchemic Charm. Ergo that limit doesn't apply to an Alchemic Charm.

Remember I said RAW not RAI. Sure you can interpret them in other ways to prevent this but this is the way the rules are written.

Besides it isn't that abusive because as was mentioned you don't break even compared with a powerstone in terms of cost until 40 doses which is only possible with Industrial Alchemy (ie TL6 or higher). And that is $36,250 minimum per under the best of conditions. So this isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
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Old 10-07-2020, 03:00 AM   #48
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Default Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?

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Everything regarding Paut Talismans is by the RAW. Heck, I started out the piece with a link to the GURPSwiki: Paul Talisman

The page explains everything and cites where the rules are coming from.
You make the assumption that you can make a multi-level paut 'elixir' and therefore a multi-level talisman, when so far as I can tell you can't. Paut is always 1 point per dose, so all making a bigger batch does is make more one-point doses.

Your reading would imply that an alchemist can just brew up Death elixirs that do 16d damage (4-in-one) and so on, and there's nothing to support that.
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Old 10-07-2020, 04:56 AM   #49
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You make the assumption that you can make a multi-level paut 'elixir' and therefore a multi-level talisman, when so far as I can tell you can't. Paut is always 1 point per dose, so all making a bigger batch does is make more one-point doses.
And actually how does the following thing contradict that? (from the linked page):

"Alchemy-20 with Technique (Paut Talisman, multiple doses) 5 will be able to produce a 6 dose (6 energy) Paut Talisman every 100 days in a normal mana area with the same amount of success as an enchanter making a quirkless 1 energy Powerstone."

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Your reading would imply that an alchemist can just brew up Death elixirs that do 16d damage (4-in-one) and so on, and there's nothing to support that.
I addressed this in a later post:

However. "Drinking paut restores FP depleted for magical purposes – spellcasting, magical powers, etc. – at the rate of 1 FP per ounce. (...) Once the drinker is at full FP, any excess energy remains available, for magical purposes only, for the next 5 minutes. " (Thau 52) This expressly nullifies the "multiple doses of the same elixir will be wasted" presented in Magic.

The only possible limit is the "A wizard can drink an ounce of paut per second, and up to 6xST ounces in any 24-hour period." part but the key word there is "drink" You don't drink an Alchemic Charm. Ergo that limit doesn't apply to an Alchemic Charm.

However, rereading the rules I did find another possible limit: "When a talisman is used, its effects last as long as the correspon ding elixir would. The talisman then becomes dormant and must “recharge” for a number of days equal to the number of weeks it would take to brew the appropriate elixir." So regardless of how much energy (doses) one uses, up to the limit, the Paut talisman goes dormant. So it is a one shot energy boost every 1.42 days in normal mana. The GM might be generous and allow energy use in the 5 minute window but we are going RAW here and that is very iffy.

Unless I missed something else that covers all the bases.
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Old 10-07-2020, 05:03 AM   #50
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Regarding 2 The only thing that Magic says is that "The method of use of an elixir depends on its form (see below). Multiple elixirs may be used at once, but multiple doses of the same elixir will be wasted except on very large creatures, which may require extra doses at the GM’s discretion. "

However. "Drinking paut restores FP depleted for magical purposes – spellcasting, magical powers, etc. – at the rate of 1 FP per ounce. (...) Once the drinker is at full FP, any excess energy remains available, for magical purposes only, for the next 5 minutes. " (Thau 52) This expressly nullifies the "multiple doses of the same elixir will be wasted" presented in Magic.

"Since paut is liquid, a mage can measure out the amount needed for any spell, without worrying about the distinction between small and large powerstones. " (Egypt p92, Cabal p103)

The only possible limit is the "A wizard can drink an ounce of paut per second, and up to 6xST ounces in any 24-hour period." part but the key word there is "drink" You don't drink an Alchemic Charm. Ergo that limit doesn't apply to an Alchemic Charm.

Remember I said RAW not RAI. Sure you can interpret them in other ways to prevent this but this is the way the rules are written.

Besides it isn't that abusive because as was mentioned you don't break even compared with a powerstone in terms of cost until 40 doses which is only possible with Industrial Alchemy (ie TL6 or higher). And that is $36,250 minimum per under the best of conditions. So this isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
So...do any of those things address the claim that you can have a multi-dose talisman?

I'm not questioning the effect of multiple paut doses. I'm questioning the proposition that a single charm can ever, under any circumstances, deliver multiple doses.

The only basis that seems to have been given so far for that claim is the existence of the option to prepare multiple doses of an elixer.
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