Yrth pagans

Is there anything "canon" that says that they northerners have always been pagans? Because it's 2005 in the book, and by then you could have brought in any number of more modern neo-pagans or historians who implanted the idea and it took off in fertile, magically-active soil.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Fez

Is there anything "canon" that says that they northerners have always been pagans? Because it's 2005 in the book, and by then you could have brought in any number of more modern neo-pagans or historians who implanted the idea and it took off in fertile, magically-active soil.

The books do describe the northern folk as starting as pagans and remaining pagan.

But I don't really care about canon except as a starting point and frame of reference. If I or somebody else has an idea that I like better than canon, I use the idea.

Now, I don't buy for a second the idea of Wiccans or Asatru followers from Earth transported in the 20th Century and converting everyone north of the Wall. But neo-pagan influences on an already pagan set of tribes? Sure.


Another possibility, which could be combined with your idea and the ideas of other posters, is that several generations of backsliders, heretics, witches, pagans, etc from Megalos and Caithness were driven north into exile. They merged with the pagan northerners. These people might have been hostile to missionary activity.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

As I noted above, the 'pagan Celts' are the problematic part. The Celtic nations had been Christian for a long time by 1050 AD.

How strong is the evidence for them actually being Celts?

[Astromancer]

I always assumed that the Banestorm pulled folks from more than one Earth.


If you have a world where Herod Antipas was more successful at keeping Rome at bay. Christianity is more focused on converting the Jews, and Saint Paul is a minor figure. In this world, large areas of Europe stay pagan because there is no Christianity around.


Such a world could supply you with plenty of the right sort of pagans.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Anthony

How strong is the evidence for them actually being Celts?

The book explicitly says 'Celts.' Banestorm pages 8 and 168. Page 8 says 'pagan Celts.'


But I don't actually see very much 'Celtic stuff' in the descriptions of the Nomad Lands.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

I always assumed that the Banestorm pulled folks from more than one Earth.


If you have a world where Herod Antipas was more successful at keeping Rome at bay. Christianity is more focused on converting the Jews, and Saint Paul is a minor figure. In this world, large areas of Europe stay pagan because there is no Christianity around.


Such a world could supply you with plenty of the right sort of pagans.

Sure, that explanation (with less detail) is offered as a possibility in Banestorm and is mentioned in my initial post.
But this thread is intended to discuss alternatives to the 'official' explanations (officially suggested explanations, really).

I'm looking for scenarios that do not involve the Banestorm grabbing alternate Earth pagans or grabbing pagans from before the 11th century AD.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

The book explicitly says 'Celts.' Banestorm pages 8 and 168. Page 8 says 'pagan Celts.'

Yes, but who exactly called them Celts? It's not like we don't have examples of, say, people being called Indians despite being a totally unrelated group living halfway around the globe from India.

[Jovus]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

That's one of the possible explanations offered by GURPS Banestorm-- and one that I ruled out in the first post.

So it is and so you did. I'm two-for-two in missing important portions of your posts due to negligence on my part. I apologize.

In an attempt to instead contribute to the discussion at hand, there is some rather sketchy evidence of very small Celtic populations establishing themselves rather farther afield in places like Denmark, Norway, or (if you're fond of pseudo-history) Iceland or Greenland.

As an alternative, you can consider the appelation 'Celt' used in the book to be a Yrth term, rather than strictly accurate. Perhaps a portion of mostly Christianized Celts was transported to the Northlands along with large populations of more truly pagan peoples, like the Norse etc., which would also help explain why these 'Celts' have a slew of religions and cultural practices that broadly ape Nordic stereotypes to modern eyes. Then, they're called Celts because some artifacts of those original Celtic settlers survive - be they a predeliction toward red hair, druidism, or the penchant for painting themselves blue - and the Anglo-Christian cultures (which are, after all, the vast majority of transplanted Christians) are familiar with Celts due to having lived in close proximity with them, so Northmen have been Celts to them with no sense of a break in continuity beyond that necessarily forced by the Banestorm.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Yes, but who exactly called them Celts? It's not like we don't have examples of, say, people being called Indians despite being a totally unrelated group living halfway around the globe from India.

The authors referred to Celts.


But one could play around that that, sure.

As noted above, I don't feel bound by canon. It's just a starting point and handy set of references

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Jovus

So it is and so you did. I'm two-for-two in missing important portions of your posts due to negligence on my part. I apologize.

In an attempt to instead contribute to the discussion at hand, there is some rather sketchy evidence of very small Celtic populations establishing themselves rather farther afield in places like Denmark, Norway, or (if you're fond of pseudo-history) Iceland or Greenland.

As an alternative, you can consider the appelation 'Celt' used in the book to be a Yrth term, rather than strictly accurate. Perhaps a portion of mostly Christianized Celts was transported to the Northlands along with large populations of more truly pagan peoples, like the Norse etc., which would also help explain why these 'Celts' have a slew of religions and cultural practices that broadly ape Nordic stereotypes to modern eyes. Then, they're called Celts because some artifacts of those original Celtic settlers survive - be they a predeliction toward red hair, druidism, or the penchant for painting themselves blue - and the Anglo-Christian cultures (which are, after all, the vast majority of transplanted Christians) are familiar with Celts due to having lived in close proximity with them, so Northmen have been Celts to them with no sense of a break in continuity beyond that necessarily forced by the Banestorm.

No need to apologize. I'm not in the least bit miffed. I figured that either you had missed part of the first line or else you just wanted to explain why you like one of the author-suggested explanations.