Yrth pagans

[combatmedic]

If one decided not to use the 'Nomad Lands paganism may be the result of the Banestorm dipping into alternate timelines/earlier centuries' concept offered in GURPS Banestrom--how might one explain it?

Most of the early wave of the Banestorm migrants came between 1050 and 1200 AD.

Maybe the Norse grabbed by the Banestorm happened to be mostly pagan 'holdouts' from the 11th Century? It's not as if everyone converted overnight.

A syncretic paganism with the 'White Christ' as one of several gods (based on similiar things in the real world) might have developed-- but what factors would help it last longer than the transitional sort of mixed belief did in our world?

The 'pagan Celts' , though, are a lot harder to explain without using an alternate timeline or a dip deeper into Earth's past. All of the Celtic countries had been Christian for a long time by 1050.

'The 'Old Religion' in Banestorm seems more like modern Wicca than historical Celtic polytheism (not that we know that much about the pre-Christian religious beleifs of the various Celtic peoples).


Banestorm says that spirits are rare outside Sahud, except possibly in the Nomad Lands.

What if antlered or horned men and some sort of female grain/earth/fertility spirits live in the Nomad Lands? The bewildered and frightened early migrants in the North encountered these two spirit types and struck pacts with them. The sprits taught the humans magical secrets in return for worship.

Pagan priests think of these beings as lesser manifestations or shadows of the two archetypal gods (Horned Man and Goddess). They may be right (leaving this undefined to preserve some mystery about the religion, as is the way with a lot of Yrth materials).


Thoughts?

Other suggestions?

EDIT-- Because I don't want to shut off some of the helpful, interesting feedback and ideas that other posters have added to the thread, I think we should open up the discussion to other 'non Abrahamic religions' on Yrth, not just the pagan beliefs of the Nomad Lands.

These things keep coming up in tangents, but are still close to the main topic.

Mods-- If you prefer that a new thread by made, please let me know.

[David Johansen]

I've always taken it that the map of Yrth is a Megalos centric one that significantly down plays the size of Sahud and the Nomad Lands.

Timeline wise, I've always thought that they were Christians with recent pagan ancestors at the time of the Banestorm and regressed. But given the nature of Yrth I'd expect Celt, Goth, and Hun tribes right alongside the Viking based ones. So you could have priests of Odin debating metaphysics with Druids and Shamans.

In the case of Yrth's barbarians, it's always struck me as being as much a deliberate diminishment of Christianity as an actual faith. More of an "Oh yeah well my gods out number your god and are gonna beat him up after school." type of extremely casual religion.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

'The 'Old Religion' in Banestorm seems more like modern Wicca than historical Celtic polytheism

Here's a scenario: fallout from the Banestorm leads to significant social upheavals among Banestormed Celts, so they're ripe for some kind of ideological shift. Moreover, the random sample of people transported from the wilder areas of Scotland and Ireland happens not to include many, or possibly any priests, nor much in the way of Christian texts. A few charismatic figures arise who find it convenient to reject institutional Christianity (which is easier than it might otherwise be, since there's no established church to fight back) and encourage different local flavors of an essentially made-up religion based on superstition and folk magic practices. The demonstrable presence of individual non-Christian spirits in the region just makes it easier. What you get may very well be more like modern inventions like Wicca than whatever historical Celtic religion actually was.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

If one decided not to use the 'Nomad Lands paganism may be the result of the Banestorm dipping into alternate timelines/earlier centuries' concept offered in GURPS Banestrom--how might one explain it?
[I]
...

Thoughts?

Other suggestions?

My first thought is that they put those theories in there for a reason, and they are not really inconsistent with the setting. Why make trouble?

My second thought is ~ "wave hands, mention magic, don't focus on it." You discuss versions of this.

My third thought is that Europe as a whole was not thoroughly Christianized by 1200 (Lithuania, frex), so it's entirely possible for the eclectic communities that formed turned to a pagan for spiritual leadership for any number of factors, and that said pagan then molded their presentation to fit better with the legends of their new "flock."

My fourth thought is that paganism gives a nice outlet for players who for various reasons don't want to play an Abrahamic Religious PC.

[ericthered]

Places where pagans could be found:

Norse. Sure, they may have converted recently, but on the other hand, you have spirits running around. This could tip the balance back.

Lithuanians (just east of the Norse)

Mongols (Who were a lot of things at this point, including shamanistic and Tengriist).

Japanese (Shintoism).

Indians, both of America and the East.

Many places in Africa.

Basically anywhere but Europe, The middle east, and arguably china.

[Polydamas]

Not just Lithuania. According to a book on Dithmarschen, a lot of the peoples of the south shore of the Baltic remained pagan past the 11th century. I think they were often called "Wends" in Christian texts; "Pomerania" might be another keyword. And on the east shore of the Baltic, Soviet ethnographers were finding peculiar things in the 1930s ....

[Jovus]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Most of the early wave of the Banestorm migrants came between 1050 and 1200 AD.

...

Other suggestions?

I'd always just assumed that the pagans in the Nomad Lands weren't included in that 'most', and most of them were grabbed from significantly earlier in Europe's history. It stretches my suspension of disbelieve not at all to think that the Banestorm could grab Franks from 1233 A.D. and Celts from 88 A.D. and plop them down simultaneously.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Not just Lithuania. According to a book on Dithmarschen, a lot of the peoples of the south shore of the Baltic remained pagan past the 11th century. I think they were often called "Wends" in Christian texts; "Pomerania" might be another keyword. And on the east shore of the Baltic, Soviet ethnographers were finding peculiar things in the 1930s ....

Oh, yes. There were a lot of raids disguised as crusades emanating from Denmark, Saxony and (later) Sweden. The Finns were also pagan until rather late and the Lapps were never really converted until (I think) 17th or 18th century.

[combatmedic]

As I noted above, the 'pagan Celts' are the problematic part. The Celtic nations had been Christian for a long time by 1050 AD.

Half-converted, pagan holdout, or backslid Norse aren't a problem in the early part of the main Banestorm period (11th century).


Wends, Old Prussians, Finns, and other such peoples would indeed work just fine. But they don't seem to be notable (or even really present) in the barbarian mix used in GURPS Fantasy/Banestorm. It would be easy enough to add them. In some ways it fits better than a strong 'Celtic' element.

Mongols and related peoples have have brought 'Tengrism.'
Mongols are mentioned in Banestorm.

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Here's a scenario: fallout from the Banestorm leads to significant social upheavals among Banestormed Celts, so they're ripe for some kind of ideological shift. Moreover, the random sample of people transported from the wilder areas of Scotland and Ireland happens not to include many, or possibly any priests, nor much in the way of Christian texts. A few charismatic figures arise who find it convenient to reject institutional Christianity (which is easier than it might otherwise be, since there's no established church to fight back) and encourage different local flavors of an essentially made-up religion based on superstition and folk magic practices. The demonstrable presence of individual non-Christian spirits in the region just makes it easier. What you get may very well be more like modern inventions like Wicca than whatever historical Celtic religion actually was.

Possible, sure. GURPS Banestorm does take a short step towards this, noting that some pagans might be the descendants of people whose faith in Christianity was shaken by the transposition to Yrth and all the weird stuff that they encountered on the new world.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Jovus

I'd always just assumed that the pagans in the Nomad Lands weren't included in that 'most', and most of them were grabbed from significantly earlier in Europe's history. It stretches my suspension of disbelieve not at all to think that the Banestorm could grab Franks from 1233 A.D. and Celts from 88 A.D. and plop them down simultaneously.

That's one of the possible explanations offered by GURPS Banestorm-- and one that I ruled out in the first post. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you should not use it. But I'm looking for an explanation/historical scenario that does not involve the Banestorm skipping through time like that, or grabbing from multiple Earths.

Originally Posted by martinl

My first thought is that they put those theories in there for a reason, and they are not really inconsistent with the setting. Why make trouble?

My second thought is ~ "wave hands, mention magic, don't focus on it." You discuss versions of this.

My third thought is that Europe as a whole was not thoroughly Christianized by 1200 (Lithuania, frex), so it's entirely possible for the eclectic communities that formed turned to a pagan for spiritual leadership for any number of factors, and that said pagan then molded their presentation to fit better with the legends of their new "flock."

My fourth thought is that paganism gives a nice outlet for players who for various reasons don't want to play an Abrahamic Religious PC.

1) Making trouble= making the setting more coherent and enjoyable for me. YMMV.


2) Magic- yeah. It's there, might as well use it. :) And a world with so much overt magic, more than what we see in the real world, is going to be affected by that difference.

3) Yes, I may do something like that. Good ideas, Martin.

4 )I'm not really concerned with providing 'outlets' for players who don't want to play Christians, Muslims, or Jews. Yrth has Buddhists, Hellenic mystery religion pagans, skeptics/irreligious types, adherents/students of the Eternal, etc.