Moral power sources OTHER than Good/Evil, Order/Chaos? - Page 9

D10 · 06-19-2009, 10:04 AM

Corruption against Purity

Collective gainst Individualism (protoss)

Sustainability vs unsustainability

Concentrated power (Burst) vs spread power

Long term vs short term

Complex vs simple

Intelligence vs ignorance

Fact vs fiction

Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2 · 06-19-2009, 10:39 AM

I tried recommending this one but the way I phrased it made people start a discussion about religion. So now I'll phrase it differently ...

Existence vs Non-Existence.

One side you have the universe wanting to exist, and on the other side you have a ravening nothingness that wants the universe erased.

Pragmatic · 06-19-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

I tried recommending this one but the way I phrased it made people start a discussion about religion. So now I'll phrase it differently ...

Existence vs Non-Existence.

One side you have the universe wanting to exist, and on the other side you have a ravening nothingness that wants the universe erased.

From Feist's Riftwar series, they're listed as "Maker" and "Breaker."

Xplo · 06-19-2009, 12:48 PM

INWO suggested "Weird" and "Straight" as viable poles; for that matter, you could import all the INWO alignments. Why have two opposing moral forces when you can have a sociopolitical pantheon's worth?

How about Turtle/Hare? Okay, maybe that's pushing the boundaries of "moral" (or for that matter, "sensible"), but anything can be justified if you wave your hands furiously enough. The Turtle symbolizes prudence, conservatism, and careful perfection in action and craft.. yeah, that's it...

Anders · 06-19-2009, 04:05 PM

Cats vs. Dogs?

Nerds vs. Jocks?

Anaraxes · 06-19-2009, 04:08 PM

Ginger vs. Mary Ann

(Actually, you could extend that to putting all seven castaways into a pantheon of moral authority. Now I'm going to be thinking of parallels between Gilligan and Greek gods all day. Thanks a lot.)

Pragmatic · 06-19-2009, 04:43 PM

I'm not sure if I should post this here, or start my own thread.

I'm considering setting up a techno-pantheon. Something for an interstellar nation to set up as the "state religion," but which has no actual "supernatural" effects.

Basically, the interstellar nation has recognized the need for spirituality, and seeks a "trends rational" pantheon.

Being the plagiarist that I am, I've so far pulled "The Living Stars" and "The Cult of Ancestors" from The Lost Fleet. I'm considering adding in Deism (i.e. "Absent Creator," we make our own heaven or hell). After that...? I'm trying to assemble a few "iconics," which typify ideals that are good for a technological society... Not sure yet what I want...

GoodGame · 06-19-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Being the plagiarist that I am, I've so far pulled "The Living Stars" and "The Cult of Ancestors" from The Lost Fleet. I'm considering adding in Deism (i.e. "Absent Creator," we make our own heaven or hell). After that...? I'm trying to assemble a few "iconics," which typify ideals that are good for a technological society... Not sure yet what I want...

Ideals (Idols) of Technology: Progress? Wealth? Power? Knowledge? Liberation/Recreation (from being freed from doing work thanks to the machines)?

William · 06-19-2009, 06:55 PM

Pathos, Ethos, and Logos.

Pathos: "It is most pleasing to do what makes people happy and avoids causing sadness. Act sympathetically."
Ethos: "It is proper to do what is right, and avoid wronging others. Act ethically."
Logos: "It is rational to do the most reasonable thing, and avoid error. Act logically."

Pathos on Ethos: "If your ethics cause sadness, they're inherently wrong."
Pathos on Logos: "If your logic doesn't make people happier, abandon it and follow your heart."

Ethos on Pathos: "Hedonism is shortsighted; ethics is historically accumulated wisdom that takes people's interests in to account."
Ethos on Logos: "Logic can lead to morally untenable outcomes, in which case it should be abandoned to go with what is right."

Logos on Pathos: "Following immediate gratification does not optimize long term outcomes."
Logos on Ethos: "Ethics that conflict with facts on the ground must be amended."

Pathos provides telepathic and empathic powers, especially emotion-based ones, as well as Social Advantages like Charisma, Social Regard, etc. Your power comes from a deep emotional understanding of yourself and others. Its moral code is based on doing what makes you and others happy. The balance between you and others varies by interpretation, so some Pathos-powered persons would be pacifists unwilling to hurt a fly (power disruption comes from violence), and others would be sadist hedonists who leech confident strength from successfully bullying others (power disruption comes from the shame of showing weakness). Pathos-wielders actually think that the other power sources are simply weak expressions of the emotional state of their own users.

Ethos provides powers of mystical guidance and moral support: Intuition, Oracle, Precognition, True Faith, Common Sense, and possibly others depending on the specific ethical code being adhered to. The nature of the code itself does not matter, in terms of the power; what matters is the adherence of the power wielder. Disruption, of course, comes from breaking the code. In-game codes that fit with this without hypocrisy would include asceticism, seamless garment pacifism, or a religion that claims any religion is a path to truth (or that all gods are emanations of the One God, etc.). Ethos-powered persons may be saints, zealots, or both. Spirits in service to a god or devil could be ethos-powered -- on both sides. Ethos-wielders actually think that the other power sources are simply deriving from the users' dedication to their own philosophies.

Logos provides powers for sensing (super-vision, hearing, etc.), analysis (eidetic memory, lightning calculator, Talent for tactics and strategy, limited Precognition from calculation, etc.), and iconic communication (i.e. the written and spoken word, and recordable data). Logos wielders who act irrationally -- on insufficient data, or failing to analyze the data or heed the analysis -- lose the benefits of their powers. Computers or construct spirits could be logos-powered. Logos-wielders actually think that other power sources are natural consequences of somewhat flawed reasoning.

A fourth power, newer on the rhetorical scene, is kairos: timing, the opportune moment, paying attention to one's audience. Associated powers would include Harmony with the Tao, Serendipity, Luck, Destiny (and infliction of a disadvantageous Destiny), Altered Time Rate, Extra Attack, and temporal or parachronic abilities. I'm uncertain what moral code this would come with, though. Being self-absorbed, overly planned, and unwilling to let go?

William · 06-19-2009, 06:58 PM

Oh, hey.

Extremism vs. Moderation.

Extremists of any philosophy are granted subtle "powers" like Destiny, Luck, High Pain Threshold, and the like, as long as they're sufficiently fanatic.

Not sure what a devotion to moderation gets you (and how would you be really moderate?), but it's definitely an opposed morality. Maybe the freedom to act sanely in a given situation, basically. ("My power is not having to spend 24 hours in a yurt after touching blood, Tenzing.")

06-19-2009, 10:04 AM	#81
D10 Join Date: May 2009 Location: In Rio de Janeiro, where it was cyberpunk before it was cool.	Re: Moral power sources OTHER than Good/Evil, Order/Chaos? Corruption against Purity Collective gainst Individualism (protoss) Sustainability vs unsustainability Concentrated power (Burst) vs spread power Long term vs short term Complex vs simple Intelligence vs ignorance Fact vs fiction

06-19-2009, 10:39 AM	#82
Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The deep dark haunted woods	Re: Moral power sources OTHER than Good/Evil, Order/Chaos? I tried recommending this one but the way I phrased it made people start a discussion about religion. So now I'll phrase it differently ... Existence vs Non-Existence. One side you have the universe wanting to exist, and on the other side you have a ravening nothingness that wants the universe erased. __________________ "When you talk about damage radius, even atomic weapons pale before that of an unfettered idiot in a position of power." - Sam Starfall from the webcomic Freefall

06-19-2009, 12:48 PM	#84
Xplo Join Date: Apr 2006	Re: Moral power sources OTHER than Good/Evil, Order/Chaos? INWO suggested "Weird" and "Straight" as viable poles; for that matter, you could import all the INWO alignments. Why have two opposing moral forces when you can have a sociopolitical pantheon's worth? How about Turtle/Hare? Okay, maybe that's pushing the boundaries of "moral" (or for that matter, "sensible"), but anything can be justified if you wave your hands furiously enough. The Turtle symbolizes prudence, conservatism, and careful perfection in action and craft.. yeah, that's it...

06-19-2009, 04:05 PM	#85
Anders Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Gothenburg, Sweden	Re: Moral power sources OTHER than Good/Evil, Order/Chaos? Cats vs. Dogs? Nerds vs. Jocks? __________________ “When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” Marcus Aurelius

06-19-2009, 04:08 PM	#86
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Moral power sources OTHER than Good/Evil, Order/Chaos? Ginger vs. Mary Ann (Actually, you could extend that to putting all seven castaways into a pantheon of moral authority. Now I'm going to be thinking of parallels between Gilligan and Greek gods all day. Thanks a lot.)

06-19-2009, 04:43 PM	#87
Pragmatic Ceci n'est pas une tag. Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Vancouver, WA (Portland Metro)	Re: Moral power sources OTHER than Good/Evil, Order/Chaos? I'm not sure if I should post this here, or start my own thread. I'm considering setting up a techno-pantheon. Something for an interstellar nation to set up as the "state religion," but which has no actual "supernatural" effects. Basically, the interstellar nation has recognized the need for spirituality, and seeks a "trends rational" pantheon. Being the plagiarist that I am, I've so far pulled "The Living Stars" and "The Cult of Ancestors" from The Lost Fleet. I'm considering adding in Deism (i.e. "Absent Creator," we make our own heaven or hell). After that...? I'm trying to assemble a few "iconics," which typify ideals that are good for a technological society... Not sure yet what I want...

06-19-2009, 06:55 PM	#89
William Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan	Re: Moral power sources OTHER than Good/Evil, Order/Chaos? Pathos, Ethos, and Logos. Pathos: "It is most pleasing to do what makes people happy and avoids causing sadness. Act sympathetically." Ethos: "It is proper to do what is right, and avoid wronging others. Act ethically." Logos: "It is rational to do the most reasonable thing, and avoid error. Act logically." Pathos on Ethos: "If your ethics cause sadness, they're inherently wrong." Pathos on Logos: "If your logic doesn't make people happier, abandon it and follow your heart." Ethos on Pathos: "Hedonism is shortsighted; ethics is historically accumulated wisdom that takes people's interests in to account." Ethos on Logos: "Logic can lead to morally untenable outcomes, in which case it should be abandoned to go with what is right." Logos on Pathos: "Following immediate gratification does not optimize long term outcomes." Logos on Ethos: "Ethics that conflict with facts on the ground must be amended." Pathos provides telepathic and empathic powers, especially emotion-based ones, as well as Social Advantages like Charisma, Social Regard, etc. Your power comes from a deep emotional understanding of yourself and others. Its moral code is based on doing what makes you and others happy. The balance between you and others varies by interpretation, so some Pathos-powered persons would be pacifists unwilling to hurt a fly (power disruption comes from violence), and others would be sadist hedonists who leech confident strength from successfully bullying others (power disruption comes from the shame of showing weakness). Pathos-wielders actually think that the other power sources are simply weak expressions of the emotional state of their own users. Ethos provides powers of mystical guidance and moral support: Intuition, Oracle, Precognition, True Faith, Common Sense, and possibly others depending on the specific ethical code being adhered to. The nature of the code itself does not matter, in terms of the power; what matters is the adherence of the power wielder. Disruption, of course, comes from breaking the code. In-game codes that fit with this without hypocrisy would include asceticism, seamless garment pacifism, or a religion that claims any religion is a path to truth (or that all gods are emanations of the One God, etc.). Ethos-powered persons may be saints, zealots, or both. Spirits in service to a god or devil could be ethos-powered -- on both sides. Ethos-wielders actually think that the other power sources are simply deriving from the users' dedication to their own philosophies. Logos provides powers for sensing (super-vision, hearing, etc.), analysis (eidetic memory, lightning calculator, Talent for tactics and strategy, limited Precognition from calculation, etc.), and iconic communication (i.e. the written and spoken word, and recordable data). Logos wielders who act irrationally -- on insufficient data, or failing to analyze the data or heed the analysis -- lose the benefits of their powers. Computers or construct spirits could be logos-powered. Logos-wielders actually think that other power sources are natural consequences of somewhat flawed reasoning. A fourth power, newer on the rhetorical scene, is kairos: timing, the opportune moment, paying attention to one's audience. Associated powers would include Harmony with the Tao, Serendipity, Luck, Destiny (and infliction of a disadvantageous Destiny), Altered Time Rate, Extra Attack, and temporal or parachronic abilities. I'm uncertain what moral code this would come with, though. Being self-absorbed, overly planned, and unwilling to let go?

06-19-2009, 06:58 PM	#90
William Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan	Re: Moral power sources OTHER than Good/Evil, Order/Chaos? Oh, hey. Extremism vs. Moderation. Extremists of any philosophy are granted subtle "powers" like Destiny, Luck, High Pain Threshold, and the like, as long as they're sufficiently fanatic. Not sure what a devotion to moderation gets you (and how would you be really moderate?), but it's definitely an opposed morality. Maybe the freedom to act sanely in a given situation, basically. ("My power is not having to spend 24 hours in a yurt after touching blood, Tenzing.")