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Old 02-24-2016, 06:39 AM   #111
Kalzazz
 
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Default Re: Mailanka's Musings -- GURPS Content Post

Fair enough. Your blog and your character sheet, so violating one of my cardinal rules of how to do a proper character sheet is obviously not your issue. I do think Book / page might not be a bad thing, if you ever do things which are not as easily found by a Ctrl F in the main rulebook. I don't exactly understand why weight damage etc of a blaster pistol is okay to publish and stats for a felinoid aren't (both are definitely things published by SJGames in rulebooks), but I guess deciding that is the fine line you mentioned. I certainly don't want you to get eaten by a pack of rabid lawyers or hurt sales of GURPS books

Where are Super Science power cells at? That is something I wasn't able to find in a quick Ctrl F


I will give a shot at making a character using new and old templates, admittedly every time I have ever used a template in an RPG I have hated it, but I used to hate baked potatoes and I now like them, so it is good to revisit old hates now and again

What I mean was the two characters, Dun and Kendra, seemed to be very simillar. I expect/want to see 'this guy has high combat skill, this guy low, this guy high DX/low IQ, this guy low IQ/high DX, this guy . . . . '

These two both had 16 skill and all stats within points of each other

Not sure if that made any sense?

More comments later after work!
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Old 02-24-2016, 06:57 AM   #112
Mailanka
 
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Default Re: Mailanka's Musings -- GURPS Content Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Fair enough. Your blog and your character sheet, so violating one of my cardinal rules of how to do a proper character sheet is obviously not your issue. I do think Book / page might not be a bad thing, if you ever do things which are not as easily found by a Ctrl F in the main rulebook.
I'll make the edit.

Quote:
I don't exactly understand why weight damage etc of a blaster pistol is okay to publish and stats for a felinoid aren't (both are definitely things published by SJGames in rulebooks), but I guess deciding that is the fine line you mentioned. I certainly don't want you to get eaten by a pack of rabid lawyers or hurt sales of GURPS books
More the latter. I doubt Kromm would breath down my neck if I published tons more details, but I don't even want to come close to that, and I want to waggle my brows and say "Wouldn't it be nice if you owned your own copy of UT?"

But some references are useful. I mean, you need to know her encumbrance and budget, and if I just shrugged and said "You have to trust me," that might be annoying. So $ and lbs are fine. Same with the point cost of the Felinoid. I also note some of their combat stats in the statline for my own convenience, which I probably shouldn't do.

Quote:
Where are Super Science power cells at? That is something I wasn't able to find in a quick Ctrl F
This is something I've deeply internalized, so perhaps it's worth mentioning explicitly: They're on UT 133.

Quote:
I will give a shot at making a character using new and old templates, admittedly every time I have ever used a template in an RPG I have hated it, but I used to hate baked potatoes and I now like them, so it is good to revisit old hates now and again
You might still hate it, but it'll at least give you additional insights, or other points to critique.

Quote:
What I mean was the two characters, Dun and Kendra, seemed to be very simillar. I expect/want to see 'this guy has high combat skill, this guy low, this guy high DX/low IQ, this guy low IQ/high DX, this guy . . . . '

These two both had 16 skill and all stats within points of each other

Not sure if that made any sense?

More comments later after work!
No, it does. The problem with the Space templates were that they were too constrained, while the problem with Iteration 2 is that I've overcompensated and become too bland. This is partly a result of using the Specialists templates, which are going to be rather generic as they're meant to create rather generic characters, and partly a result of me trying to make each template do too much. I mean, look at how the Bounty Hunter has three different talent options! There are several characters inside of there, and an overgeneralized template risks being a "master of none" sort of character.

But Dun and Kendra serve similar roles. They're both specialists at understanding the criminal mind, engaging in physical violence and often incapacitating someone without killing them. So if I said "What would a body guard have?" You'd say "Well, he'd probably have some skills for understanding the criminal mind, and some brawn and decent observation skills." And if I asked you what a bounty hunter would have, you might come up with a similar answer, so to an extent, it's pretty obvious that they'd be rather similar.

But I still think the real flaw is that blandness. I had already begun revising the template before our discussion for precisely this reason, and I've made further adjustments based on your points. For example, in Iteration 3, expect to see a Bounty Hunter with +1 DX, -1 IQ, and the Tough Guy talent as standard (with a +2). This gives Kendra a focus on the skills that actually matter to her, and make her an even more effective pistolero. I'll be honest, though, the Space Knight is giving me some trouble, as there's no good talent for what he does (Natural Copper comes closest). But he'll end up getting ripped apart come Iteration 4 anyway, because if there was ever a class driven by powers and martial arts, it's the Space Knight. I wouldn't be surprised to see him get split into two or three templates by then. This version is an interim version, an "interesting idea."

So while I disagree with some of your criticisms and we certainly have a different philosophy, several of your points are well-made, worth my consideration, and are already being folded in.

I should also note that this is part of the iteration process. Flaws will happen, we're okay with that. We can always go back and revise, and as we work through things, flaws will come out (which is why we revisit often). As someone said, I'm letting you guys see the sausage getting made... which means each iteration has flaws, but improves on the last.
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Last edited by Mailanka; 02-24-2016 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 02-24-2016, 07:56 AM   #113
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Default Re: Mailanka's Musings -- GURPS Content Post

55 combat rounds! Whoa. Yeah, ammo is not going to be a big concern!

Interestingly I now note UT doesn't have selective fire blasters

A lot of my characters have wielded various forms of automatic weaponry, where a single magazine represented 2 combat rounds of ammo, so mad reload and ammo lugging skills were pretty key

So definitely paradigm shifty!
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Old 02-24-2016, 09:54 PM   #114
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Default Re: Mailanka's Musings -- GURPS Content Post

Alright, why not. Here is my attempt at the 'Dual Wielding Catgirl Bounty Hunter'

As a note, I didn't actually make up a catperson racial template, nor see any particular reason to use one, since its not like catpeople have obvious racial tendencies like bursting into flames . . . . I would just write 'catperson' on the sheet and not worry about it! (that is usually how I handle races, in the 15ish years of DMing GURPS I have never made up a racial template, I have just written the race down on the sheet and rolled on, adding advantages/disads as needed, but never actually marking which are which)

Anyway, Mitzi McCracken is from the big 'New York City in Space' planet of Civa Magnus, where her ancestors immigrated to and were cheap labor, and she is one of like a couple dozen kids in a poor family (Catlingr have lots of kids), with her dad being a beat cop and her mom a housekeeper, and her grandfathers were both cops, and she wanted to be a cop. Except her official police duties wound up pretty much being sweeping the station and making Space Coffee for mininum wage, so she became a bounty hunter!

Here is a suitable dual wielding catgirl picture (credit to artist ranbu harinin)
http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/sampl...9ec4589ddc.jpg

Version 1 - Space, 18 minutes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing


Version 2 - Mailanka's Template, 37 minutes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing


Version 3 - Freehand, 29 minutes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

You can see how well you think I did at following that concept
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Old 02-24-2016, 10:03 PM   #115
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Default Re: Mailanka's Musings -- GURPS Content Post

As a note, I think the idea of Catpeople as Minorities is quite amusing, really made me think of the Irish in Blazing Saddles, then the idea of how often Irish immigrants joined police forces in the US (since we were looking at catpeople with Law Enforcement Powers)
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Old 02-25-2016, 12:19 AM   #116
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Default Re: Mailanka's Musings -- GURPS Content Post

Today is GURPS day and it seems my post didn't drop automatically at midnight. My apologies!

In any case, here it is: Troopers 2.0, the latest version of our mooks.
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Old 02-26-2016, 12:17 AM   #117
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Default Re: Mailanka's Musings -- GURPS Content Post

Finally, we end the data dump and iteration 2 with a playtest.

Thanks for following Iteration 2. Next week, we start Iteration 3, where I take a look at technology, and we start... with a data dump! We'll hit the basic notes quickly over the first week: An introduction, faster-than-light travel, infrastructure, non-combat gear, and then combat gear.

See you guys next week.
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Old 02-27-2016, 04:38 AM   #118
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Default Re: Mailanka's Musings -- GURPS Content Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Alright, why not. Here is my attempt at the 'Dual Wielding Catgirl Bounty Hunter'

As a note, I didn't actually make up a catperson racial template, nor see any particular reason to use one, since its not like catpeople have obvious racial tendencies like bursting into flames . . . . I would just write 'catperson' on the sheet and not worry about it! (that is usually how I handle races, in the 15ish years of DMing GURPS I have never made up a racial template, I have just written the race down on the sheet and rolled on, adding advantages/disads as needed, but never actually marking which are which)

Anyway, Mitzi McCracken is from the big 'New York City in Space' planet of Civa Magnus, where her ancestors immigrated to and were cheap labor, and she is one of like a couple dozen kids in a poor family (Catlingr have lots of kids), with her dad being a beat cop and her mom a housekeeper, and her grandfathers were both cops, and she wanted to be a cop. Except her official police duties wound up pretty much being sweeping the station and making Space Coffee for mininum wage, so she became a bounty hunter!

Here is a suitable dual wielding catgirl picture (credit to artist ranbu harinin)
http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/sampl...9ec4589ddc.jpg

Version 1 - Space, 18 minutes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing


Version 2 - Mailanka's Template, 37 minutes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing


Version 3 - Freehand, 29 minutes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

You can see how well you think I did at following that concept
I'm sure you'd say you preferred doing it freehand, but we're examining the templates themselves (which serve a variety of purposes). How do you think the Space template compared to the new template? Which gave you more flexibility? Which zeroed in closer on the concept you wanted? Which gave you a better feel for the setting you were playing in? If you were to hand one or the other to a player, which would you use?

And I can't get your picture to load up, I'm afraid.
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Old 02-27-2016, 05:17 AM   #119
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Default Re: Mailanka's Musings -- GURPS Content Post

And a bonus post: The Iteration 2 retrospective, and a preview of the next iteration.
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Old 02-27-2016, 07:41 AM   #120
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Well, we are to a certain extent comparing apples and rhododendrons since one is 120 and one is 250

I feel both templates do pretty decently at providing a suitable selection of disads that didn't cause me any real issues, I didn't wind up taking anything I'd be real annoyed to play 'because I need X more points of disads'

Neither of them did very well at zeroing in on the concept I wanted. Because both of them lacked Dual Weapon Attack. And since I couldn't really follow the concept I wanted, neither of them allow a focus on using a rifle either! Or a shield for that matter (not that I can really imagine using a shield), so from both I get the impression that the template is getting between me and the character I want

I do feel much better about the Space template spending 4pts on Beam Weapons (Pistol) than the New Template. 4pts on a 120pt template? Alright, we can go with that, maybe. On a 250pt template? And I really am dubious at the unarmed focus of the new template . . . . that really hurts my feelings of concept to have someone who put way more resources into unarmed combat than gunplay

The new template is way more flexible, but . . . not in a way that helped. For instance, you have 3 talents. I have to go break open Talents, look up all 3 talents, and find out none of them have Criminology (which I wanted), and anyway, if I have to try to cross reference talents and skills from list then ugh, I'd be at this even longer

And the flexibility comes _after_ the important choices are made to a good extent, you are going to have 4points in Beam Weapons (Pistol) and thats your extent of choices for 'primary how do I make things die' (do we have stun settings? If so, thats also my primary choice for how do I make things not die)

I really like how the DF Martial Artist or DF Knight or DF Swashbuckler break down choices for you 'here, all points in 2 handed weapon' 'here, points in weapon and shield' 'points in all unarmed, or unarmed and weapon' etc, this would have made it better

I also didn't like the inclusion of the full unmodified gunslinger, and only the full unmodified gunslinger. Full unmodified gunslinger is great if you want to use every weapon that exists (like Boba Fett, who had rockets, flamers, rifle, wrist blasters oh my. Totally fits for him), however, our template characters have neither the skills nor the ST to use every weapon in the book (we see how much encumbrance Kendra is eating just trying to carry two heavy blaster pistols). I can forgive Space for that much more readily, as Space predates modified Gunslinger, but not so much the New Template

I didn't get much setting feel from either, I mean, I got the idea that pistols were a good thing, but pistols being a good thing can be anything from Old West on forward, and I got the idea that I wasn't going to be using a lot of military grade hardware, and that was about it. I did make the odd notice that neither Patron (Employer) or Duty (Employer) were on either sheet. That was weird. I usually think of Bounty Hunters as having employers ranging from Friendly Joe's Bail Bonds to the Bounty Hunters Guild, the Bounty Hunters Guild in particular being prevalent in Star Wars

I would probably give a new player the Space One, just because I would be more afraid of a new player getting stuck and losing steam plowing through the new one, especially once he started to try to look at three different Talents, none of which seem exactly really what I want. I think it would be much easier for him to . . . . but I still very much dislike the idea of using templates for this, I would be much more likely to give him a copy of Kendra's sheet and say 'hey, here is a bounty hunter thats already statted out, you can use this for inspiration'. I would consider that much better.

If the player is not a new player I might consider giving them the new template, but I would probably just say '250 pts, TL 11ish, 'I Can't Believe Its Not Star Wars', let me see the sheet when your done' and let them get at it

Hmmm, anyway, the Space Template is short, not very flexible . . . . the . . new template is way longer, but still doesn't really seem to be that much more flexible . . . it seems to give more options, but not in the most meaningful of ways. Not sure if that explains anything

edit - I added the picture to the sheets I linked, on sheet2 of the sheet, labeled 'Pic'

Last edited by Kalzazz; 02-27-2016 at 08:37 AM.
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