Cloth under Armor and Capes

[Skarg]

Yeah, I think chain and plate armors probably do include the equivalent of cloth armor underneath, but it's a GM call, and I think there might likely be technical (non TFT combat-significant) detail and appearance differences between that padding and what you'd have as cloth armor designed to be worn by itself.

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Well, that might be what the rules imply but it's not particularly realistic. The 'padding' worn under 15th-16th century european plate armor (what we're talking about here) was a thick gambeson and padded trews that would easily be worth 1 point of armor by itself. A well made modern reproduction is an inch thick, dense quilted, with a heavy canvas outer layer. You can drive a sharp point into one and a heavy hacking blow will go through, but they really are effective as-is at stopping most slicing or cutting blows.

That was part of my original confusion. But having decided to go with the stats as they are, I had to resolve including the underpadding that has no point value.

[hcobb]

Japanese armor of each type would have the metal woven into the fabric so you can't partially layer, also costs twice as much but this is mostly for the rustproofing.

[larsdangly]

The only really essential thing about TFT's armor stats is that the DX penalty equals the protective value except for fine plate. So long as you stay within this 'trade space' and aren't doing something else unusual (like, tweaking experience and advancement rules to give yourself a DX of 25), then any house rules will be fine. e.g., layering chainmail over padded armor is equivalent to half plate; leather over chainmail over padded armor (yes, this is an historical mix of 14th century armor!) provides protection like fine plate but at a higher DX penalty of -6. None of this is game changing, so I'd say proceed at will.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

So long as you stay within this 'trade space' and aren't doing something else unusual (like, tweaking experience and advancement rules to give yourself a DX of 25), then any house rules will be fine.

Why are my ears burning?
;)

[larsdangly]

The real 'failure modes' of the new TFT are going to be house-ruled attribute bloat and/or over reliance on magic items. My prediction is that groups that do these things will end up unhappy with their campaigns, but it is a lot to ask most people to exercise the discipline required to run a bunch of 38-40 pt characters without prospect of gaining another few stat points some day. It's a little like level limits in 1E and B/X - games that are definitely more fun to play when everyone is under 10'th level, yet somehow most long term groups end up with 30th level characters.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

The real 'failure modes' of the new TFT are going to be house-ruled attribute bloat and/or over reliance on magic items. My prediction is that groups that do these things will end up unhappy with their campaigns, but it is a lot to ask most people to exercise the discipline required to run a bunch of 38-40 pt characters without prospect of gaining another few stat points some day. It's a little like level limits in 1E and B/X - games that are definitely more fun to play when everyone is under 10'th level, yet somehow most long term groups end up with 30th level characters.

I agree, but you can solve both issues by allowing them to gain stats in excess of 40 -- just double the cost in XP for each additional Attribute point -- it allows them to work towards that goal, but it will take FOREVER after an extra point or two and they'll be much more likely to work on skills/spells instead...

This provides them with the illusion of possible advancement (indeed, even the reality if they are remarkably lucky -- and disciplined in retaining XP for long periods of time without spending them on a handy skill or spell), but at the same time ensures you won't see much attribute bloat at all.

The magic items thing is always a danger of course -- especially with new GMs. The specter of the Monte Haul dungeon always crops up in those cases. (I was guilty of it too when I was a teenager!)

[larsdangly]

Perhaps you don't have the Legacy edition yet? Doubling costs per point is how it works. The issue is that this quickly spirals to a point where your stats are probably not worth raising above 38 or so (because the points would be better spent elsewhere), and are never going over 40-42 (because the player will die of old age before the character earns enough XP).

To be clear, I think this is fantastic - TFT is at its most exciting and characters are most interesting at these sorts of attribute totals. Anyone just getting into the game is well advised to stick strictly to these constraints.

My main worry is that the publishers have already telegraphed that they don't take the XP rules very seriously when it comes to designing adventures and powerful NPCs.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Perhaps you don't have the Legacy edition yet? Doubling costs per point is how it works. The issue is that this quickly spirals to a point where your stats are probably not worth raising above 38 or so (because the points would be better spent elsewhere), and are never going over 40-42 (because the player will die of old age before the character earns enough XP).

To be clear, I think this is fantastic - TFT is at its most exciting and characters are most interesting at these sorts of attribute totals. Anyone just getting into the game is well advised to stick strictly to these constraints.

My main worry is that the publishers have already telegraphed that they don't take the XP rules very seriously when it comes to designing adventures and powerful NPCs.

I was referring to attributes beyond the 40 point total -- which are currently "forbidden" in the RAW. Just remove the limit and let them go to town. Odds are, you'll never see anything approaching either Conan the Wizard or Einstein the Barbarian despite the removal of the limit, simply because it's too expensive and there are all those lovely skills and spells you can invest in instead.

However. A similar issue will still crop up in a long-running campaign, because eventually every character will have every spell and talent and, once again, they'll all look alike.

Finally, keep in mind that every adventure included in the Legacy Kickstarter was originally drafted under the Metagaming version of the rules, and converted to the new Legacy edition rules, but in order to keep the relative threats of the characters in those adventures, they kept them pretty close to the originals. I suspect that as new adventures are published, you'll see the new rules adhered to much more closely (and, indeed, we have some evidence of that in the two that were already released to the public before the "Adventures" Kickstarter).

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by JLV

I was referring to attributes beyond the 40 point total -- which are currently "forbidden" in the RAW.

They are not forbidden.

ITL15: Note: a strength of 20 or more is very rare by Earth standards. If a GM wants to run a “realistic” campaign, he should consider limiting the maximum ST of human-type figures to that level.

ITL16: so characters should be allowed as high a DX as they can attain.
The GM may create characters with any point value desired, but very high ST+DX+IQ totals are rare:
Above 40 Hope they’re friendly!

ITL45: 41st and later Double cost each time. Adding attributes at this point is rarely cost effective (and see Attribute Bloat, below).

ITL47: But the real solution is for GMs not to become overgenerous with XP to the character who “just wants one more point of DX so I can fence blindfolded in plate armor.” Or whatever

Sir Wiper ST 9 DX 20(12) IQ 11
Rapier(1d+1) Fine plate(6) Blindfold
Fencer, Acute Hearing, etc.