4E GURPS Rules left to cover - Page 7

~~Figleaf23~~ · 05-22-2011, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Note that I spoke of "real-world magical beliefs", not "provably functional real-world magic systems".

As for your other point: I won't be surprised to learn that there isn't as much to go on in terms of historical magical traditions as there is on historical fighting styles; but I will be surprised to learn that there isn't enough to build an RPG supplement around.

The difference is how much of the book would have to be essentially made-up (or at least massively inferential) and they may not see value in such elaboration.

Another difficulty is that many 'real' magic systems may be of little practical use in exciting games of derring do, thereby limiting the market.

dataweaver · 05-22-2011, 09:00 AM

That is indeed the question: how "holey" would such a project be? As I said, I would be surprised to learn that there's not enough information to build an RPG supplement around. Look at existing "historical setting" supplements for GURPS to get a rough sense of what proper research can do for you: such books as Aztecs, Arabian Nights, Celtic Myth, China, Japan, Old West, and Vikings provide looks at the magical beliefs of their respective cultures. I'm thinking of a book that would do the same sort of thing, but with the focus being "the magical beliefs of various cultures around the world and throughout history".

And I freely admit that many 'real' magic systems may be of little practical use in exciting games of derring do. But then, exactly the same thing could be said of the Path Magic system found in GURPS Thaumatology, and for very much the same reasons. In fact, Path Magic was originally conceived as a reasonably close approximation of real-world voudoun and hermetic magic traditions when it was published as Ritual Magic back in GURPS Voodoo: the Shadow War, and it has seen use for native American shamanism as well (in a last edition of Old West); and I would expect that it would see heavy use in the supplement that I'm proposing. Indeed, I'd expect it to be the default system used, with others called upon only to supplement Path Magic, or in the unlikely event that Path Magic turns out to be a poor fit for a particular real-world magical tradition.

The reason why Path Magic has a fanbase is that not everything in GURPS is aimed at exciting games of derring do; many play styles have a much more cerebral aspect, and/or lean more toward games of intrigue. In such games, the fact that Path magic is slow and requires significant preparation isn't as much of a hindrance as it would be in, say, a Dungeon Fantasy or Action game, due to the copious amount of down-time that's likely to occur; and the fact that its effects are mostly subtle and easy to confuse with coincidence and/or mind games might actually be a benefit in games where being flashy will get you killed.

Lord Carnifex · 05-22-2011, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

The difference is how much of the book would have to be essentially made-up (or at least massively inferential) and they may not see value in such elaboration.

Aye. There's the rub. But I for one would be willing to trade real-world information for a significant pile of verisimilitude.

Quote:

Another difficulty is that many 'real' magic systems may be of little practical use in exciting games of derring do, thereby limiting the market.

The fact that the market for this would be so limited is what makes such a work a pipe dream for me. Still, there are some of us who wouldn't mind gaming out scenarios like The Invisibles, The Ninth Gate, or some of the more bizarre permutations of Foucault's Pendulum. Let alone come to grips with something like Riddles in Stone. Besides, between GURPS Cabal, GURPS Illuminati, GURPS Voodoo, and the Suppressed Transmission columns, it's not like SJG hasn't skirted around the edges of something like this. The success of Delta Green and Unknown Armies suggests the market is not entirely negligible.

Heck, I'd offer to write it myself, but no publisher is going to want to meet my budget for research materials :-)

Ffej · 05-22-2011, 06:58 PM

I think that such a book would be very useful for an urban fantasy campaign in a contemporary setting. It would be easy to imagine a large metropolitan city being home to mages with a diverse range of traditions.

Sure, you could say that the game rules are the same for all of them, whichever side of the world their knowledge of the dark arts comes from. But that wouldn't be very 'realistic'.

dataweaver · 05-23-2011, 02:24 AM

What I envision:

First, a chapter that adapts Magical Styles for use with Path Magic; this would involve a few new Style Perks (and possibly zero-point Features and/or Quirks) representing tweaks to the standard Path Magic rules (e.g., using the Energy-Accumulating model instead of the Effect-Shaping one; using Books instead of Paths; Mandatory Magery vs. Limited Non-Mage Ceremonies; changing the core skill; stuff like that).

Then, a chapter that writes up a bunch of historical and modern-day real-world belief systems as "Path Magic" Styles: which Paths/Books are most prominent? Which Rituals does this tradition tend to favor? What secret rituals might it teach (the mystical equivalent of "Cinematic Skills and Techniques")? What Style Perks fit it? Sample Ritual Elements for this tradition: what does it consider to be a "sacred site"? what are its mystically significant calendar dates? What materials, objects, and symbols have significance and what do they signify? And so on.

If there are any notable authentic magical traditions for which Path Magic is inappropriate, a third chapter could cover that.

And yes, this supplement would be useful for an urban fantasy campaign. For instance, one could revise and expand the Shadow War setting to include a more diverse selection of magical traditions beyond the voudoun and the Lodges. I could also see it being used in conjunction with appropriate 3e historical setting books to run a campaign that's set somewhere in the past: Old West already makes use of a 3e version of Path Magic for Indian shamen, but I think that that could be improved on; "Waves of Blood" in GURPS Horror also references Path Magic in a swashbuckling context, with a bias toward Voodoo concepts; other historical setting books often provide customized magic systems that are based on the standard GURPS Magic system, while this would provide Path-based alternatives for most.

05-22-2011, 09:00 AM	#62
dataweaver Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: 4E GURPS Rules left to cover That is indeed the question: how "holey" would such a project be? As I said, I would be surprised to learn that there's not enough information to build an RPG supplement around. Look at existing "historical setting" supplements for GURPS to get a rough sense of what proper research can do for you: such books as Aztecs, Arabian Nights, Celtic Myth, China, Japan, Old West, and Vikings provide looks at the magical beliefs of their respective cultures. I'm thinking of a book that would do the same sort of thing, but with the focus being "the magical beliefs of various cultures around the world and throughout history". And I freely admit that many 'real' magic systems may be of little practical use in exciting games of derring do. But then, exactly the same thing could be said of the Path Magic system found in GURPS Thaumatology, and for very much the same reasons. In fact, Path Magic was originally conceived as a reasonably close approximation of real-world voudoun and hermetic magic traditions when it was published as Ritual Magic back in GURPS Voodoo: the Shadow War, and it has seen use for native American shamanism as well (in a last edition of Old West); and I would expect that it would see heavy use in the supplement that I'm proposing. Indeed, I'd expect it to be the default system used, with others called upon only to supplement Path Magic, or in the unlikely event that Path Magic turns out to be a poor fit for a particular real-world magical tradition. The reason why Path Magic has a fanbase is that not everything in GURPS is aimed at exciting games of derring do; many play styles have a much more cerebral aspect, and/or lean more toward games of intrigue. In such games, the fact that Path magic is slow and requires significant preparation isn't as much of a hindrance as it would be in, say, a Dungeon Fantasy or Action game, due to the copious amount of down-time that's likely to occur; and the fact that its effects are mostly subtle and easy to confuse with coincidence and/or mind games might actually be a benefit in games where being flashy will get you killed.

05-22-2011, 06:58 PM	#64
Ffej Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Seattle, WA	Re: 4E GURPS Rules left to cover I think that such a book would be very useful for an urban fantasy campaign in a contemporary setting. It would be easy to imagine a large metropolitan city being home to mages with a diverse range of traditions. Sure, you could say that the game rules are the same for all of them, whichever side of the world their knowledge of the dark arts comes from. But that wouldn't be very 'realistic'.

05-23-2011, 02:24 AM	#65
dataweaver Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: 4E GURPS Rules left to cover What I envision: First, a chapter that adapts Magical Styles for use with Path Magic; this would involve a few new Style Perks (and possibly zero-point Features and/or Quirks) representing tweaks to the standard Path Magic rules (e.g., using the Energy-Accumulating model instead of the Effect-Shaping one; using Books instead of Paths; Mandatory Magery vs. Limited Non-Mage Ceremonies; changing the core skill; stuff like that). Then, a chapter that writes up a bunch of historical and modern-day real-world belief systems as "Path Magic" Styles: which Paths/Books are most prominent? Which Rituals does this tradition tend to favor? What secret rituals might it teach (the mystical equivalent of "Cinematic Skills and Techniques")? What Style Perks fit it? Sample Ritual Elements for this tradition: what does it consider to be a "sacred site"? what are its mystically significant calendar dates? What materials, objects, and symbols have significance and what do they signify? And so on. If there are any notable authentic magical traditions for which Path Magic is inappropriate, a third chapter could cover that. And yes, this supplement would be useful for an urban fantasy campaign. For instance, one could revise and expand the Shadow War setting to include a more diverse selection of magical traditions beyond the voudoun and the Lodges. I could also see it being used in conjunction with appropriate 3e historical setting books to run a campaign that's set somewhere in the past: Old West already makes use of a 3e version of Path Magic for Indian shamen, but I think that that could be improved on; "Waves of Blood" in GURPS Horror also references Path Magic in a swashbuckling context, with a bias toward Voodoo concepts; other historical setting books often provide customized magic systems that are based on the standard GURPS Magic system, while this would provide Path-based alternatives for most.