Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it... - Page 2

Fred Brackin · 04-22-2010, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lachimba

I am not sure what you mean.

GURPS Psionics has the power controlled by skilled paradigm. It is the same as 4th edition apart from the underlying mechanics and the cost of the powers.

If you don't use GURPS Psionics the roll is most often against Will, Per or IQ (+ Talent)

Do you mean Gurps Psionic Powers? There is no 4e Gurps Psionics.

davidtmoore · 04-22-2010, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissAmber

Right, Talents modify your roll from what I can tell, but what exactly are you rolling against?

Generally, IQ. The advantages in GURPS Characters state whether a roll is required (or you can take a limitation to require a roll); by adding the -10% power limitation, you accept some restrictions to the power (can be opposed by "antipsi" powers and technology), but the relevant Power Talent adds to the IQ roll.

Worked example 1: Jane is a telepath. Among her powers is Mind-Reading (Telepathic -10%) [27 points]. She has IQ 12 and the Telepathy Power Talent 2 [10]. Reading someone's thoughts normally requires an IQ roll (p. B69), but her Talent is added to her IQ for the purposes of her Telepathy powers, so she rolls at 14.

Worked example 2: Bob is a telekinetic. Among his powers is Flight (Psychokinetic -10%, Requires IQ roll -10%) [32]. He has IQ 11 and the Psychokinetic Power Talent 4 [20]. Flying is normally automatic, but with the Requires IQ Roll limitation (Powers, p. 112), he needs to make an IQ roll to take off, and an additional roll every minute to stay airborne. However, as his Flight ability is part of the Psychokinesis Power, he adds his Power Talent to his IQ, and rolls at 15.

GURPS Psionic Powers for 4e added "Psionic Skills," which replace attribute rolls for individual abilities. Using these rules, Bob has to learn the skill Levitation (IQ/Hard) and use it instead of IQ for activating his flight ability. Once again, the Talent applies, so 4 points would buy him skill 15. This is a zero-point option for the Psionic Powers rules; on the upside, you can learn your skill with an individual power to high levels relatively cheaply, and use the various fiddly options in Psionic Powers (extra effort, etc.); on the downside, you need to spend 4 points just to reach parity with someone not using the options.

Does this help?

Mgellis · 04-22-2010, 08:11 AM

My understanding is that you do this...

1) Buy the power you want (e.g., Telesend)

2) Buy whatever enhancements and limitations are appropriate for the variation of the power you want

3) Include an appropriate power modifier (e.g., Telepathy, -10%)

4) Buy the appropriate skill (IQ/H). This represents your fine control of your ability.

5) Once you have a skill, the appropriate Talent will modify it (like Magery for spells) and you can purchase special techniques, which default against it.

The good part of all this is that there are rules for fine-tuning psionic abilities. The bad part is that it is a bit more complicated, and you really need to have Psionic Powers as this lists the various skills, techniques, etc.

To avoid this, I imagine that one could simply design different powers that do not use skills. It looks like the default for the main powers (chi, psionic, super, ets.) will be that they use skills. But little-known variant powers might not need them. For example, there is no reason why a world could not have Mind powers along with Psionic powers. Mind powers can be disrupted with countermeasures, etc., so they have a -10% modifier, like psionic, but they do not use skills. This means one can only rely on the raw power of the mind (IQ, Will, etc.). One can use a Talent to improve the overall control, but without skills, there is no fine-tweaking of the abilities, no techniques, etc.

Or, use "Wild" advantages, which do not have power modifiers, etc. However, a wild advantage will have no talents, no skills, no special techniques, etc. It operates "as is" from the Basic Set. Everything would be rolled against IQ, DX, Will, Innate Attack, etc. This would be the case with creatures who have innate abilities like dragons.

Anyway, that's my take on it. I hope this helps.

Mark

aesir23 · 04-22-2010, 08:17 AM

I don't have much to add, the explanations given above have been excellent.

GURPS Psionic Powers uses rules introduced in GURPS Powers. If you haven't read that book, that could be the reason for your confusion.

Mgellis · 04-22-2010, 08:21 AM

Minor point...

A few abilities don't use skills, but these are abilities that are totally passive where there is no fine control. For example, hyperspectral vision does not have a skill because you just turn it on and you can see in an extended spectrum. Seeing is not a skill. :)

David Johnston2 · 04-22-2010, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissAmber

So reading over the 4th Edition rules, including GURPS Psionics, has left me feeling utterly lost as to how psionics works. I'm sure it's all there, but it's just not clicking for some reason. Perhaps I'm too entrenched in the power controlled by skill paradigm of 3rd Edition.

Well first of all, GURPS Psionic Powers is there to restore the power controlled by skill paradigm of 3rd edition. Using that supplement, you can buy Telepathy and then the specific skills that let you use different applications of that power like mind control or mental attack pretty much the way you could in 3rd edition. Just ignore the stuff about how it was constructed because that doesn't matter.

kdtipa · 04-22-2010, 08:30 AM

I saw a special on british sniper training... and based on that... "seeing" is a skill. Those guys could spot ridiculous things under insane circumstances. It was the trained ability to see things other people would not notice.

And I can see a need for a skill level for hyperspectral vision... it could be your perception value with that particular sense. Just a thought.

Bruno · 04-22-2010, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kdtipa

I saw a special on british sniper training... and based on that... "seeing" is a skill. Those guys could spot ridiculous things under insane circumstances. It was the trained ability to see things other people would not notice.

That's the Observation skill ;)

Corlock Striker · 04-22-2010, 08:44 AM

That would just be a perception check. You could concievably apply a negative modifier to perception for different types of vision based on how recently a character aquired it, how often they use it, and things like that, I suppose.

munin · 04-22-2010, 09:15 AM

There are a number of ways to approach psionics in 4e, depending on which books you've acquired.

If all you have is the Basic Set, then psionic abilities are just the advantages as written up in the Advantages chapter, with a power modifier added that reflects psi's drawbacks (Using Psi Abilities, p. B255). So a psi would buy Telekinesis with a -10% limitation and it works just as it's written up on p. B92 -- no rolls required. For abilities which do require a roll (such as Mind Control or Warp), you can also buy a power talent which adds to such rolls. This is just an introductory way to use psionics, suitable for folks who just have the basic set or just want something very simple to use.

GURPS Powers introduces many new concepts -- including the Requires (Attribute) Roll limitation which can be added to a trait (for example, thus requiring a roll to use telekinesis, which otherwise doesn't need it), and the mechanic of exchanging a skill roll for an attribute roll (Skills For Everyone, p. P162).

GURPS Powers is a toolkit for designing how powers work. GURPS Psionic Powers demonstrates one way to use this toolkit by presenting a worked example of psionic powers that reflects the author's favorite aspects of 3e psionics. You're free to change how these powers work and GURPS Powers has many discussions of how to do this.

04-22-2010, 08:11 AM	#13
Mgellis Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Flushing, Michigan	Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it... My understanding is that you do this... 1) Buy the power you want (e.g., Telesend) 2) Buy whatever enhancements and limitations are appropriate for the variation of the power you want 3) Include an appropriate power modifier (e.g., Telepathy, -10%) 4) Buy the appropriate skill (IQ/H). This represents your fine control of your ability. 5) Once you have a skill, the appropriate Talent will modify it (like Magery for spells) and you can purchase special techniques, which default against it. The good part of all this is that there are rules for fine-tuning psionic abilities. The bad part is that it is a bit more complicated, and you really need to have Psionic Powers as this lists the various skills, techniques, etc. To avoid this, I imagine that one could simply design different powers that do not use skills. It looks like the default for the main powers (chi, psionic, super, ets.) will be that they use skills. But little-known variant powers might not need them. For example, there is no reason why a world could not have Mind powers along with Psionic powers. Mind powers can be disrupted with countermeasures, etc., so they have a -10% modifier, like psionic, but they do not use skills. This means one can only rely on the raw power of the mind (IQ, Will, etc.). One can use a Talent to improve the overall control, but without skills, there is no fine-tweaking of the abilities, no techniques, etc. Or, use "Wild" advantages, which do not have power modifiers, etc. However, a wild advantage will have no talents, no skills, no special techniques, etc. It operates "as is" from the Basic Set. Everything would be rolled against IQ, DX, Will, Innate Attack, etc. This would be the case with creatures who have innate abilities like dragons. Anyway, that's my take on it. I hope this helps. Mark

04-22-2010, 08:17 AM	#14
aesir23 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Vermont	Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it... I don't have much to add, the explanations given above have been excellent. GURPS Psionic Powers uses rules introduced in GURPS Powers. If you haven't read that book, that could be the reason for your confusion. __________________ My ongoing thread of GURPS versions of DC Comics characters.

04-22-2010, 08:21 AM	#15
Mgellis Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Flushing, Michigan	Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it... Minor point... A few abilities don't use skills, but these are abilities that are totally passive where there is no fine control. For example, hyperspectral vision does not have a skill because you just turn it on and you can see in an extended spectrum. Seeing is not a skill. :)

04-22-2010, 08:30 AM	#17
kdtipa Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Southern New Hampshire	Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it... I saw a special on british sniper training... and based on that... "seeing" is a skill. Those guys could spot ridiculous things under insane circumstances. It was the trained ability to see things other people would not notice. And I can see a need for a skill level for hyperspectral vision... it could be your perception value with that particular sense. Just a thought.

04-22-2010, 08:44 AM	#19
Corlock Striker Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: New York	Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it... That would just be a perception check. You could concievably apply a negative modifier to perception for different types of vision based on how recently a character aquired it, how often they use it, and things like that, I suppose.

04-22-2010, 09:15 AM	#20
munin Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Vermont, USA	Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it... There are a number of ways to approach psionics in 4e, depending on which books you've acquired. If all you have is the *Basic Set, then psionic abilities are just the advantages as written up in the Advantages chapter, with a power modifier added that reflects psi's drawbacks (Using Psi Abilities, p. B255). So a psi would buy Telekinesis with a -10% limitation and it works just as it's written up on p. B92 -- no rolls required. For abilities which do require a roll (such as Mind Control or Warp), you can also buy a power talent which adds to such rolls. This is just an introductory way to use psionics, suitable for folks who just have the basic set or just want something very simple to use. GURPS Powers* introduces many new concepts -- including the Requires (Attribute) Roll limitation which can be added to a trait (for example, thus requiring a roll to use telekinesis, which otherwise doesn't need it), and the mechanic of exchanging a skill roll for an attribute roll (Skills For Everyone, p. P162). *GURPS Powers* is a toolkit for designing how powers work. GURPS Psionic Powers demonstrates one way to use this toolkit by presenting a worked example of psionic powers that reflects the author's favorite aspects of 3e psionics. You're free to change how these powers work and *GURPS Powers* has many discussions of how to do this.