Two-handed sword question

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

What are you talking about? A bastard sword is more balanced than a greatsword, one-handed, that's what makes it a bastard sword. That is, a cross between a longsword and a greatsword. What you are saying is the opposite of logic.

In case you are confused by the use of Longsword, it was probably reference to the specific weapon listed in MA, which was historically called a "longsword." This is distinct from the common gaming practice of categorizing single-handed swords as "longswords."

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

A Bastard sword, used in one hand, has a min ST 11 and has a U parry, it isn't Unreadied when you attack, it's Unbalanced to parry when you attack.
If you have ST 20, you can use a Bastard Sword in one hand without any U penalty.

That's pretty dubious. There is a stat-line for using the Bastard Sword one-handed already. I think that supersedes the general rules for wielding two-handed weapons one-handed.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That's pretty dubious. There is a stat-line for using the Bastard Sword one-handed already. I think that supersedes the general rules for wielding two-handed weapons one-handed.

Good point.

When something is unbalanced it'll always be unbalanced, but if you're strong enough that lack of balance can stop being as extreme an issue, so it then just becomes a question of where to put the line for strong enough for it not to be an issue.

Considering that a U can be eliminated by a -2 to damage (Defensive Attack), someone with +4 ST can do the same dmg and parry at the same time.

So with a Bastard Sword someone with ST 15, can choose to do Defensive Attacks and be able to parry while doing as much dmg as someone with ST 11.

Hells, at ST 15+ I'd let you fence using a Bastard Sword despite it being unbalanced, as long as you're doing Defensive Attacks...

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Nothing dubious about it, if you're strong enough you can basically wield Two-Handed weapons in one hand, so no reason that extra ST wouldn't also make up for not having another hand on the hilt to provide the extra balance required to make it not a U parry.

When something is unbalanced it'll always be unbalanced, but if you're strong enough that lack of balance can stop being as extreme an issue, so it then just becomes a question of where to put the line for strong enough for it not to be an issue.

Considering that a U can be eliminated by a -2 to damage (Defensive Attack), an argument can be made that you only need to exceed the min ST of a U weapon by 1.5x, instead of 2x, to reach that threshold.

Which for a Bastard Sword would be ST 17, hells, at ST 17 I'd let you fence using a Bastard Sword despite it being unbalanced...

Are you actually proposing that U parry can be negated by sufficient ST? Because that is most definitely not the case.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Are you actually proposing that U parry can be negated by sufficient ST? Because that is most definitely not the case.

I think he's arguing more for it being the case for this particular situation, as a way to resolve the disconnect between one-handed bastard swording and one-handed greatswording for sufficiently strong characters. Personally, I prefer giving anything of bastard-sword-length or greater Parry U when used one-handed, but I can see the logic of allowing very strong characters to negate the U in this instance.

Parry U is generally because the shape/design of the weapon is one that precludes attacking and defending at the same time. For the bastard sword, the Parry U is more because the sword is just too heavy for one hand to completely control, so it would make sense that someone sufficiently strong would be able to wield it perfectly well with one hand.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Yes, which is why you put a second hand on the Bastard sword to recover in order to parry, at which point it's balanced in two hands and has no U penalty.

A Bastard sword, used in one hand, has a min ST 11 and has a U parry, it isn't Unreadied when you attack, it's Unbalanced to parry when you attack.
If you have ST 20, you can use a Bastard Sword in one hand without any U penalty.

A Greatsword, used in one hand, has a min ST 24 without any penalty, though at ST 18 it can be used with one hand and becomes Unreadied after an attack.

Is that clearer?

No, it's as clear as it was a few months ago when we had this same discussion on the board. It's clear, all right. It just doesn't make any damned sense.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Are you actually proposing that U parry can be negated by sufficient ST? Because that is most definitely not the case.

It is the case. But only for greatswords. The bastard sword is too small and well-balanced.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

It is the case. But only for greatswords. The bastard sword is too small and well-balanced.

...What? Greatswords never have U parry. What are you saying?

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...What? Greatswords never have U parry. What are you saying?

That's what I'm saying. The larger, heavier greatsword never has U parry, but the bastard sword does. If only the bastard sword were more unwieldly, such that it normally needed two hands, it wouldn't have that little U parry problem when wielded one-handed.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

No, it's as clear as it was a few months ago when we had this same discussion on the board. It's clear, all right. It just doesn't make any damned sense.

You know, I forget things sometimes, thinking back to the Martial Arts playtest...

Part of the problem is that the skill names of what GURPS uses for sword-skills doesn't really have much to do with actual real world swords, sort of like the skill name "Karate" has nothing to do with the names of the actual skills used by hand-to-hand styles throughout history.

The weapon in GURPS Basic Set which is called a "Bastard Sword", is not meant as a functional sword, it's sort of a huge executioner's falchion, or a heavy metal stick out of fantasy, sort of like the double-headed fantasy Great Axe.


If you want a real world bastard sword, a real world hand-and-a-half sword, you need to use what GURPS calls a Longsword, that's why the Longsword is an entry in Martial Arts.

You only use the Basic Set "Bastard Sword" as a weapon wielded by some savage barbarian type from a civilization which doesn't understand how to make real swords, or a ceremonial blade hung up on the wall and used on the chopping block, then you make sure the PCs have Longswords for their own bastard sword usage.