Innate Attack: Flaming Angelical Sword

[BaHalus]

OK, in addition to my Soul Armour ( http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=77667 ), I want a Special sword too. And I have some doubts:

Angelical Sword
Imp level 1 Cost 8
Cut level 1 Cost 1,4 (7/5 alternative attack)
Total base cost 9,4

Melee (C,1) -20%
Blockable -10% (Can be blocked and parried)
ST-Based +100%
Switchable +10%
Reduced time +20%
Affects insubstantial +20%

Final cost = 9,4 +120% = 20,68 = 21

First doubt: It is right? Or the correct should be:

Angelical Sword
Imp level 1 Cost 8
Cut level 1 Cost 1,4 (7/5 alternative attack)
Total base cost 9,4

Melee (C,1) -20%
Blockable -10% (Can be blocked and parried)
Switchable +10%
Reduced time +20%
Affects insubstantial +20%

Subtotal = 9,4 +20% = 11,28

ST-Based +100%

Final cost = 11,28 +100% = 22,56 = 23

OK, I can make it appear as a free action, has an acceptable range, can be blocked and parried.

-------------------
Second doubt, how do we calculate the ST-based damage?

A ST22 character would cause 1D+2D=3D impaling damage and 1D+4D=5D cutting damage, right? Or would it be 1D+2 and 1D+4?

A ST 16 Character would make 1D+1D+1 = 2D+1 impaling damage and 1D+2D+2=3D+2 cutting damage? Or would do only 2D impaling and 3D cutting damage?

-------------------
Third doubt, how do I add a flaming damage to the sword, in both kind of attack? And how to make it an always on effect (well, on, while the sword is on, in other way, I can only attack with the flames on) and how to make it a selective effect (I can choose if I want to attack using the flames or not). I don't think the flammable enhancement is exactly what I want.

-------------------

Fourth doubt, I think that the harder one. As it is an angelical sword, I want to put some selectivity in it, with increased damage to the bad and reduced damage to the good. It is a bit difficult, as GURPS doesn't have something like an alignment advantage/disadvantage/feature. I was thinking something like that:

Good entities (like angels, good gods, and things like that)
->No damage (I think this one is worth no point, as I would hardly attack and probably wouldn't damage such beings. And I doubt they would appear in the game too).

Saints
-> no damage (Well, pretty rare too, but I surely could kill one, don't know, think it doesn't worth points either).

Innocents (neutral) and good people or creatures in general:
-> Armor multiplier (x2), no blunt trauma, no wounding

Good people or creatures in general,
-> -1 point of damage

Virtuous people, close to heaven people, blessed ones,
-> an additional -1 point of damage

priests of good or neutral entities/gods (monotheists included here) (a bad priest of a good or neutral god would get this one (but not the other innocent bonus), an evil priest don't get even this one)
-> an additional -1 point of damage

neutral or good elves
-> An additional -1 point of damage

So a close to heaven elven priest would get -> Armor multiplier (x2), no blunt trauma, no wounding and -4 points of damage.

--------------
On the other side
Bad people (bullies, thieves, liers, kleptomaniacs, bad humored, etc. In other words: Not that bad ones) (I think this will be the most frequent one)
-> Normal damage

Evil people (sanguinolent, sadists, assassins, evil worshipers, worshipers of bad oriented gods or entities (gods of war, death, hatred, and so on)
-> Armor divisor, double blunt trauma

Good orcs and ogres
-> Normal damage

Neutral, Bad orcs and ogres
-> Armor divisor(2), double blunt trauma

Evil Orcs and ogres
-> Armor divisor(2), double blunt trauma, +1 point of damage

Priests of evil entities
-> An additional +1 point of damage

Bad Creatures
-> Armor divisor(2), double blunt trauma, +1 point of damage

Evil Creatures
-> Armor divisor (3), double blunt trauma, +2 point of damage, maybe a slight reach increase.

Demons, Evil entities (doubt to face that kind too, but I think this is still costs some points)
-> Armor divisor(5), double blunt trauma, +4 point of damage, maybe with some short ranged auto guided attack (like a fireball or a flame jet).

[chris1982]

Originally Posted by BaHalus

Fourth doubt, I think that the harder one. As it is an angelical sword, I want to put some selectivity in it, with increased damage to the bad and reduced damage to the good. It is a bit difficult, as GURPS doesn't have something like an alignment advantage/disadvantage/feature. I was thinking something like that:

Good entities (like angels, good gods, and things like that)
->No damage (I think this one is worth no point, as I would hardly attack and probably wouldn't damage such beings. And I doubt they would appear in the game too).

Saints
-> no damage (Well, pretty rare too, but I surely could kill one, don't know, think it doesn't worth points either).

Innocents (neutral) and good people or creatures in general:
-> Armor multiplier (x2), no blunt trauma, no wounding

Good people or creatures in general,
-> -1 point of damage

Virtuous people, close to heaven people, blessed ones,
-> an additional -1 point of damage

priests of good or neutral entities/gods (monotheists included here) (a bad priest of a good or neutral god would get this one (but not the other innocent bonus), an evil priest don't get even this one)
-> an additional -1 point of damage

neutral or good elves
-> An additional -1 point of damage

So a close to heaven elven priest would get -> Armor multiplier (x2), no blunt trauma, no wounding and -4 points of damage.

--------------
On the other side
Bad people (bullies, thieves, liers, kleptomaniacs, bad humored, etc. In other words: Not that bad ones) (I think this will be the most frequent one)
-> Normal damage

Evil people (sanguinolent, sadists, assassins, evil worshipers, worshipers of bad oriented gods or entities (gods of war, death, hatred, and so on)
-> Armor divisor, double blunt trauma

Good orcs and ogres
-> Normal damage

Neutral, Bad orcs and ogres
-> Armor divisor(2), double blunt trauma

Evil Orcs and ogres
-> Armor divisor(2), double blunt trauma, +1 point of damage

Priests of evil entities
-> An additional +1 point of damage

Bad Creatures
-> Armor divisor(2), double blunt trauma, +1 point of damage

Evil Creatures
-> Armor divisor (3), double blunt trauma, +2 point of damage, maybe a slight reach increase.

Demons, Evil entities (doubt to face that kind too, but I think this is still costs some points)
-> Armor divisor(5), double blunt trauma, +4 point of damage, maybe with some short ranged auto guided attack (like a fireball or a flame jet).

A bit too complicated for my taste.

But if it is for a paladin style character with the appropriate disads all that "less damage to good creatures" stuff is worth 0 points.

The extra damage should have some limitation (doesn't work vs non-evil) which I would rate at about -10 to -20% depending on how oftern it will show up in your campaign.

[BaHalus]

Originally Posted by chris1982

A bit too complicated for my taste.

But if it is for a paladin style character with the appropriate disads all that "less damage to good creatures" stuff is worth 0 points.

The extra damage should have some limitation (doesn't work vs non-evil) which I would rate at about -10 to -20% depending on how oftern it will show up in your campaign.

Yes, as I told, it is the most complicated one.
I am thinking in calculating the lower damage and adding successive damage with successive accessibility limitations.

And modifying the no blunt trauma, no wounding and armor multiplier limitations, and double blunt, armor divisor enhancements with accessibility modifications too.

ButI really want t know the first three first:
Cost of the ST-based, damage of the ST-based and adding flame damage to base damage in both alternative attacks.

[Anaraxes]

The "ST-based" Enhancement for Melee Attack is in Powers, p103. (+100%; add your thrust or swing damage)

Trying to model melee attacks with equipment with Innate Attacks is one of the traditionally frustrating problems. In fact, TPTB created a whole new mechanic, "Imbuements", to address the "I pick up a sword and make it burst into flame" concept. Given that we're talking about an angel that materializes its own flaming sword, I don't think an IA isn't out of the question. The problem come more on the lower-power end, where the damage from ST is a significant component of the damage, and the power just adds a little.

Calling the sword a flaming sword means you can change the damage type to burning, rather than cutting or impaling. It doesn't necessarily call for more damage. If you want more damage, then you can of course buy more. Perhaps you have a 5d sword (cutting), with an AA that's a 7d flaming sword (burning). An alternative is to have the flame attack as a Follow-Up attack, so that you inflict extra flame damage if the base sword attack penetrates.

IA is a levelled advantage, as is Armor Divisor. It's perfectly legal to buy some levels of an advantage, and then buy some more with a "doesn't affect evil" limitation. The exact Accessbility limitations and stacking of levels can be as complex as you care to keep track of and do the math for.

I'd agree that -10% is probably about right; in most campaigns that care about good and evil and have paladins, this is a pretty minor limitation.

[Langy]

I'd go with a follow-up Burning attack to represent the 'flaming' part. A sword made out of fire would be straight-up burning, but a sword that's on fire has a follow-up burning attack. It's also mechanically easier.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by BaHalus

OK, in addition to my Soul Armour ( http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=77667 ), I want a Special sword too. And I have some doubts:

Angelical Sword
Imp level 1 Cost 8
Cut level 1 Cost 1,4 (7/5 alternative attack)
Total base cost 9,4

Melee (C,1) -20%
Blockable -10% (Can be blocked and parried)
ST-Based +100%
Switchable +10%
Reduced time +20%
Affects insubstantial +20%

Final cost = 9,4 +120% = 20,68 = 21

First off, you apply modifiers to the two attacks separately, round up for point cost, and then apply the 1/5 to the smaller as an Alternate Attack. So it's 8 pts for 1d Impaling, +120% = 18 pts. It's 7 pts for 1d Cutting, +120% = 16 pts, 16/5 = 4 pts. So, total of 22 pts. Since you took ST-based, I'd say you get Thrust damage added to the Impaling and Swing damage added to the Cutting, although technically you could take Swing for both, it just doesn't seem thematically correct.

Although... what's the Reduced Time for? You don't need that, it doesn't do anything on an innate attack. It should actually be 16 pts + 14/5 (3) pts, for a total of 19 pts.

Originally Posted by BaHalus

First doubt: It is right? Or the correct should be:

Angelical Sword
Imp level 1 Cost 8
Cut level 1 Cost 1,4 (7/5 alternative attack)
Total base cost 9,4

Melee (C,1) -20%
Blockable -10% (Can be blocked and parried)
Switchable +10%
Reduced time +20%
Affects insubstantial +20%

Subtotal = 9,4 +20% = 11,28

ST-Based +100%

Final cost = 11,28 +100% = 22,56 = 23

OK, I can make it appear as a free action, has an acceptable range, can be blocked and parried.

Definitely not - you don't do some modifiers, then do the +100% ST-Based enhancement separately. Also, melee Innate Attacks don't require a Ready in the first place, so again you don't need Reduced Time to have it appear and be ready to attack with as a free action.

Originally Posted by BaHalus

-------------------
Second doubt, how do we calculate the ST-based damage?

A ST22 character would cause 1D+2D=3D impaling damage and 1D+4D=5D cutting damage, right? Or would it be 1D+2 and 1D+4?

A ST 16 Character would make 1D+1D+1 = 2D+1 impaling damage and 1D+2D+2=3D+2 cutting damage? Or would do only 2D impaling and 3D cutting damage?

You get Thrust or Swing per your ST. As I mentioned above, you could technically take Swing for both attacks, but it seems more conceptually correct to use Thrust for the Impaling. Why are you thinking it would be the lower values?

Originally Posted by BaHalus

-------------------
Third doubt, how do I add a flaming damage to the sword, in both kind of attack? And how to make it an always on effect (well, on, while the sword is on, in other way, I can only attack with the flames on) and how to make it a selective effect (I can choose if I want to attack using the flames or not). I don't think the flammable enhancement is exactly what I want.

Not unless you just want a chance to set things on fire, and no actual Burning damage. The easiest way here is to make it a Follow-Up attack on your main sword attacks (I'd let you buy it once to be a Follow-Up to either, I'm nice that way). Not sure if this means the flame will take affect if you parry with your melee Innate Attacks, though - for that effect, might want to go with Link instead, even if it's a mite more expensive (but the +10% or +20% if you can just light things on fire by gently touching them with the sword for Link should be offset by the Melee limitation, so maybe not - but does make the main attacks more expensive).

Originally Posted by BaHalus

-------------------

Fourth doubt, I think that the harder one. As it is an angelical sword, I want to put some selectivity in it, with increased damage to the bad and reduced damage to the good. It is a bit difficult, as GURPS doesn't have something like an alignment advantage/disadvantage/feature. I was thinking something like that:

Good entities (like angels, good gods, and things like that)
->No damage (I think this one is worth no point, as I would hardly attack and probably wouldn't damage such beings. And I doubt they would appear in the game too).

Saints
-> no damage (Well, pretty rare too, but I surely could kill one, don't know, think it doesn't worth points either).

Could be considered an Accessibility, but it's one that's about as helpful as it's inconvenient, so probably +0%. Or maybe even an enhancement, if it means you avoid ticking off good powers.

Originally Posted by BaHalus

Innocents (neutral) and good people or creatures in general:
-> Armor multiplier (x2), no blunt trauma, no wounding

This could be tough, and done with a weird limiting a limitation construct, but on the other hand, with no wounding and no blunt trauma, what does it actually do other than maybe knockback? Probably better to lump it in with the first case.

Originally Posted by BaHalus

Good people or creatures in general,
-> -1 point of damage

Virtuous people, close to heaven people, blessed ones,
-> an additional -1 point of damage

priests of good or neutral entities/gods (monotheists included here) (a bad priest of a good or neutral god would get this one (but not the other innocent bonus), an evil priest don't get even this one)
-> an additional -1 point of damage

neutral or good elves
-> An additional -1 point of damage

So a close to heaven elven priest would get -> Armor multiplier (x2), no blunt trauma, no wounding and -4 points of damage.

I would say that for all these cases, it's far easier to take extra damage that doesn't work against these classes than any kind of negative modifier to damage. Maybe reducing the base attack to +1 pip plus ST-Based or the like. But on the other hand, if they're all getting No Wounding and No Blunt Trauma, the only thing the damage is actually going to be doing to them is knockback, so you almost might as well have the attack be ineffective against them. It's actually starting to sound more and more like a positive Accessibility, worth something like +20% for making sure you never do damage to anybody you wouldn't want to hurt - and a free Detect Good/Evil, if you can swing at a target and determine its alignment by whether your sword does anything or not.

Originally Posted by BaHalus

--------------
On the other side
Bad people (bullies, thieves, liers, kleptomaniacs, bad humored, etc. In other words: Not that bad ones) (I think this will be the most frequent one)
-> Normal damage

Evil people (sanguinolent, sadists, assassins, evil worshipers, worshipers of bad oriented gods or entities (gods of war, death, hatred, and so on)
-> Armor divisor, double blunt trauma

Good orcs and ogres
-> Normal damage

Neutral, Bad orcs and ogres
-> Armor divisor(2), double blunt trauma

Evil Orcs and ogres
-> Armor divisor(2), double blunt trauma, +1 point of damage

Priests of evil entities
-> An additional +1 point of damage

Bad Creatures
-> Armor divisor(2), double blunt trauma, +1 point of damage

Evil Creatures
-> Armor divisor (3), double blunt trauma, +2 point of damage, maybe a slight reach increase.

Demons, Evil entities (doubt to face that kind too, but I think this is still costs some points)
-> Armor divisor(5), double blunt trauma, +4 point of damage, maybe with some short ranged auto guided attack (like a fireball or a flame jet).

Added damage and limited enhancements. I'd probably scratch this whole complex structure, make it a mere +1 damage plus ST-Based for the primary attack, maybe with a Feature that it won't work against the truly good, innocent, or blessed, and then add an additional die or two that only works against the truly evil or diabolical. Not a big discount on the latter, either, unless restricted to actual demons and undead and the like, since the evil are the main ones you want to hurt anyway.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

An alternative is to have the flame attack as a Follow-Up attack, so that you inflict extra flame damage if the base sword attack penetrates.

Note that Follow-Ups roll their dice even if the primary attack doesn't penetrate DR; it's just that they only get to ignore the DR when the primary attack penetrates. E.g., it's perfectly possible you could swing the sword against a foe that has armor-like skin with DR proof against Crushing, Cutting, Impaling... but not against Burning. In which case, the sword's edge could bounce against the DR, but since the DR doesn't count against Burning, your full Follow-Up attack gets through to HP anyway.

[BaHalus]

I think I misunderstood no wounding. I thought it was just no bleeding and stuff like that.

[BaHalus]

Oh, the scenário is Caithness just before Peredur's death. The char is a very strong blacksmith that does not remember his past.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

First off, you apply modifiers to the two attacks separately, round up for point cost, and then apply the 1/5 to the smaller as an Alternate Attack. So it's 8 pts for 1d Impaling, +120% = 18 pts. It's 7 pts for 1d Cutting, +120% = 16 pts, 16/5 = 4 pts. So, total of 22 pts.

Are you sure of that? Seems to much work and calculation for a series of enhancements and limitations that will aplly equally for both. And does not seems that it will ever make a difference bigger than 1 character point for rounding before. And I don't see that from what is in the Box in page 61 of the basic set.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Although... what's the Reduced Time for? You don't need that, it doesn't do anything on an innate attack. It should actually be 16 pts + 14/5 (3) pts, for a total of 19 pts.

Are You sure? The sword just appear and disappear when needed as a free special effect? I don't need neither Switchable or reduced time? What limitation should I take to the opposite thing?

Definitely not - you don't do some modifiers, then do the +100% ST-Based enhancement separately. Also, melee Innate Attacks don't require a Ready in the first place, so again you don't need Reduced Time to have it appear and be ready to attack with as a free action.

Well, Powers, pg104: "Work out Melee Attack as usual, and then add a +100% enhancement." The way it was written confused me. I really thought it was a special different mechanics here. That I had to make all the math and add +100% over the final value.

Since you took ST-based, I'd say you get Thrust damage added to the Impaling and Swing damage added to the Cutting, although technically you could take Swing for both, it just doesn't seem thematically correct. (...) You get Thrust or Swing per your ST. As I mentioned above, you could technically take Swing for both attacks, but it seems more conceptually correct to use Thrust for the Impaling.

And are you sure that I can add impaling damage to a swing? It would be like a pick axe? If this is correct, I think I will simply avoid the alternative attack. It will be more expensive for a more limited damage.

Or I should apply more limitations tho the attacks?
Like Thrusting only for impaling (-50% as thrusting does half damage) and swing only for cutting (Don't know, -10%? Maybe this one is not even necessary).

Why are you thinking it would be the lower values?

Powers pg. 103-104:"You can add your dice of thrust or swing damage to the damage of your Innate Attack." I didn't understand, see, it don't says Add your swing or thrust damage, it says add your DICE of thrust or swing damage. I understood that it means just the dice, not the modifiers (+1, -2, etc). And it confused me if the dice should be added as a dice or a modifier
(1D = +1, 2D= +2, etc), but the last option really appeared to me to be to weak for a +100% modifier.

Not unless you just want a chance to set things on fire, and no actual Burning damage. The easiest way here is to make it a Follow-Up attack on your main sword attacks (I'd let you buy it once to be a Follow-Up to either, I'm nice that way). Not sure if this means the flame will take affect if you parry with your melee Innate Attacks, though - for that effect, might want to go with Link instead, even if it's a mite more expensive (but the +10% or +20% if you can just light things on fire by gently touching them with the sword for Link should be offset by the Melee limitation, so maybe not - but does make the main attacks more expensive).

Follow up stack with the first attack? For example, if I inflict a impaling damage of 7 and a burning damage of 3 in a RD of 8, I will still inflict 2 burning damage? Follow up would cost -20% (melee over the burning price? It is not applied in the base attack price right? -10% blockable and +20% affects insubstantial must be applied on the burning attack too?

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by BaHalus

I think I misunderstood no wounding. I thought it was just no bleeding and stuff like that.

Nope, it doesn't just do away with injury modifiers from Cutting and such, or give the target the equivalent of No Blood, it stops you from doing any actual HP damage.

Probably simplest to make it a +1 Impaling/+1 Cutting (or +2 Cutting, in which case the Cutting Attack will actually be more expensive and the Impaling the Alternate) effect at base, ST-Based, with a -0% Accessibility that it won't harm the truly holy or innocent (should almost charge an enhancement for that, really), and an additional die of damage that only works against the unholy, demonic, or truly irredeemably evil, at -20% for that Accessibility. Have the flaming effect be a Follow-Up of 1d Burning, with one or the other of those Accessibilities as well, depending on whether you want it to only work on the truly evil or to work on anything except the truly good and holy, keeping in mind that you want the latter if you want utilitarian uses like lighting that distinctly neutral campfire or the tapestries in the bad guy's castle.