Knife hidden in a sword hilt

[The Grand Cliche]

Thank you all for your great input on this. Since the campaign is "realistic fantasy", I think I'm going to allow it, but with some of the limitations discussed above (higher cost, balancing). Maybe if he can find a wizard who is also a swordsmith, he can get an enchanted version which retains better balance.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Witchking

Well it depends...for 2x base cost he gets an average weapon (and unless he has popped a lot of points into merchant and has the right speciality of merchant figure he probably loses the contest with the smith/merchant by 4 or 5 figure another 20-25% on top) extra cost is to make a "workable" weapon.

If he wants a "fine" weapon with these features then take the cost multiple for fine or VF then 2x that...then mod for losing the Merchant contest.

However I would not mandate that the weapon must be Fine or VF...I would allow a moderately above average SWORDSMITH to handle the modifications taking about 2x the normal time approx.

Thanks for the info tho.

An average weapon would not have the superior materials used to make a sword handle which functions as well as a solid one. Nor would it have had the amount of skilled labor needed to make a dagger or small knife both fit snuggly within the handle AND not affect the sword's long axial balance.

If I were a master smith making this thing I'd be losing money selling it for 2x normal price.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by The Grand Cliche

Thank you all for your great input on this. Since the campaign is "realistic fantasy", I think I'm going to allow it, but with some of the limitations discussed above (higher cost, balancing). Maybe if he can find a wizard who is also a swordsmith, he can get an enchanted version which retains better balance.

One option is to have the knife with a hilt of a smaller diameter hilt that fits inside the sword hilt, Thus, while the sword hilt is hollow it does not have it's length reduced by more than the pommel.

Alternately, the blade could be directly attached to the pommel, making the knife hiltless, along the lines of a punch dagger (with the pommel in the fist and the blade sticking out between the second and third fingers). The only advantage over the knife above is that less of the sword hilt has to be hollow; a greater disadvantage is that it would be virtually useless to parry.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Stripe

I think that if it's pulled out like in the ASCII drawing, there's no problems at all. The tang could still be in there, both the tang and the blade just offset a little bit. Maybe a slightly heavier or lighter pommel to keep the balance true.

Um you couldn't ofset it with out structural and ballance issues though. Forking it around an icepick like knife would be your best option but it would still introduce stress concentrations just like any void in metal does.

And there is no way to avoid screwing up ballance in some fashion.

Now, if he wanted sword-chucks, we'd have to have a talk.

But they are so KEWL!!!

[Rendu]

My take: The knife would be, at best, a small knife or, more likely, a stiletto, in a two-handed sword. If you offset the knife blade slightly, you wouldn't interfere too much with the tang of the sword. The only way this would really be useful is as a "surprise" weapon- pinning the opponent's sword, then pulling out the knife for a quick (and hopefully fight-ending) attack. Balance penalties to the sword afterward, although these could be offset by a technique. A Fast-Draw specialization (knife from hilt) would be reasonable. Possibly even a Sleight of Hand technique to "palm" the knife while appearing to sheathe or drop the sword, so the opponent thinks you're unarmed.

Afterthought: Poison the knife! It's protected, and much more likely to end the fight.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by Rendu

Possibly even a Sleight of Hand technique to "palm" the knife while appearing to sheathe or drop the sword, so the opponent thinks you're unarmed. (...) Poison the knife!

That's about the only real use I can see for this, and even then it's stretching it.

Also, I'd have a hard time believing anyone could find a smith capable of doing this in anything but the most over-the-top medieval fantasy settings (aka World of Warcraft).

[Kale]

Originally Posted by Rendu

Afterthought: Poison the knife! It's protected, and much more likely to end the fight.

I could see this as a very convoluted misdirection tactic for an assassin: Stab your victim with a poisoned stiletto and kill them. When you are searched you have a great big sword, which couldn't have possibly made the tiny stab wound the victim received. The poisoned, probably bloody, knife is now safely concealed back in the sword hilt, which any searchers are unlikely to find as they will be distracted by the presence of the sword itself.

[yoippari]

I've seen pictures of something vaguely similar to this idea. Twin rapiers that attach to each other at the guard and top of the handle. When connected it is a slightly heavy rapier with good weight behind its thrusts. You can... not twist, but... grab the handle in two hands, butts and tips together, and push half the pommel down and the other up so that you end up with two "half" swords split down the middle.

As I remember it was a little awkward having a definite left and right blade in either hand with only a guard on the outsides and I would make it a unique familiarity for using it but it did work and work well.

You could do something very similar with a knife that actually inset in the side of the sword filling in the fuller for a portion and when it is detached leaving a hollow in the handle. Would add minimal weight and shouldn't be enough difference to make a break or skill penalty.

[Figleaf23]

How about this configuration, with the knife slotted along side the sword:


0=======)----------------------------------------------------------------\
0==0====)---------->----------------------------------------------------->
0=======)----------------------------------------------------------------/

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by yoippari

I've seen pictures of something vaguely similar to this idea. Twin rapiers that attach to each other at the guard and top of the handle. When connected it is a slightly heavy rapier with good weight behind its thrusts. You can... not twist, but... grab the handle in two hands, butts and tips together, and push half the pommel down and the other up so that you end up with two "half" swords split down the middle.

where have you seen this? In a museum catalogue or a fantasy game?