Research skill

[Anders]

How is this supposed to work? According to the rules, it seems I could find exciting stuff about, say, treatment of a disease even if I don't know the squat about physiology, pathology or pharmacology. If it's in the book I can find it...

But that's hardly realistic. If I don't know anything about a subject then I don't know what information is relevant and what can be safely discarded. Maybe I work off of the knowledge assumed to have a default? But then what about skills that don't have a default, like the Hidden Lore skills?

I don't know how to interpret what I found - is that a separate issue? Do I roll against the pertinent skill to do that? Or is that part of the skill?

I suggest that you roll at -5 if you don't have the relevant skill, and that you can't research skills with no default unless you have put a point in them.

[rust]

As I interpret it, one already has to know what information one is looking for
in order to research it in a library or database, "research" without a specific
aim would be just browsing. The aim of the research depends on the previous
knowledge of the person in question, for example someone without any skill in
medicine will hardly have a reason to research the details of the use of lithi-
um in the therapy of depression and the required knowledge to comprehend
what he finds. So research is basically an auxiliary skill which requires general
or specific knowledge in order to find additional knowledge, it is useless on its
own.

[smurf]

You know how to look and where to look.

Over time you know which is the best place for information rather than the easiest.

Say the difference of searching the National Geographic catalogue and knowing what Journals would be best to go to for a specific field.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by rust

As I interpret it, one already has to know what information one is looking for
in order to research it in a library or database, "research" without a specific
aim would be just browsing. The aim of the research depends on the previous
knowledge of the person in question, for example someone without any skill in
medicine will hardly have a reason to research the details of the use of lithi-
um in the therapy of depression and the required knowledge to comprehend
what he finds. So research is basically an auxiliary skill which requires general
or specific knowledge in order to find additional knowledge, it is useless on its
own.

I fully do agree with that. During game, the players tell the GM what they are exactly looking for before rolling the dice against the Search skill. And, in order to know what they are looking for, the player usually have rolled against other skills... Diagnosis if they are searching how to heal a specific illness for instance.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

How is this supposed to work? According to the rules, it seems I could find exciting stuff about, say, treatment of a disease even if I don't know the squat about physiology, pathology or pharmacology. If it's in the book I can find it...

That's fine really. With a successful Research roll at an appropriate medical library, you eventually find the all books, journal articles and other materials you will need to read to learn enough about the disease to treat it. If it requires a Physician roll to do that, this probably means an hour of reading after you are done with all the research if you already know Physician. If you don't, you can assemble everything you need for the couple months of self study you'll need to earn a point in Physician (optional specialization: this disease) to understand that hour or two of material.

But that's hardly realistic. If I don't know anything about a subject then I don't know what information is relevant and what can be safely discarded. Maybe I work off of the knowledge assumed to have a default? But then what about skills that don't have a default, like the Hidden Lore skills?

Hidden Lore skills, being pretty strictly skills to know something, replace the need for Research to learn an answer to a question about whatever they cover. If you have a specific question you can know the answer to with a Hidden Lore roll, then yes, a successful Research roll in a library that actually has that information (it being hidden, most will not) gives you exactly the same thing. Part of the skill involved in Research *is* the filter the irrelevant stuff and evaluating sources to determine which ones are reliable.

I suggest that you roll at -5 if you don't have the relevant skill, and that you can't research skills with no default unless you have put a point in them.

I think the thing here is that Research doesn't let you *do* anything with the information. If all you care about is a particular fact, you don't need any other skills. If you have to physically do something with it, or reason from it to some other conclusion, which is after all what you usually want information for, you'll need another skill. It's the same principle as Intelligence Analysis or Observation really. They all let you acquire information, they don't let you use it for anything in particular.

[benz72]

If a knowledge skill doesn't provide a specific bit of information, research should be able to be used as a '2nd try'.
E.g. My chemistry skill roll failed and I couldn't map the process for synthesizing trinitrotoluene. Fortunately I can hit the library and look for that specific answer with a research roll.
If time were critical I might have been out of luck, since research takes too long.

E.g. 2 Dungeon-Delver Dave grew up in a wholesome household and never took Hidden Lore (Demonology) but that otherworldly thing that is trying to beat down the library door had horns and a tail… Rolling research at default he gets a 5 and succeeds! Quickly scanning through books until he finds one with pictures of creatures he starts flipping through until one looks like the thing he saw out in the hall… if only he could read the writing under the picture!
I would consider using Serendipity in a situation like this as well, regardless of research skill. Xander would occasionally walk up to the rest of the Scooby Gang and say something like ‘Hey, is this ancient tome important?’
(All IMHO of course)

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by malloyd

That's fine really. With a successful Research roll at an appropriate medical library, you eventually find the all books, journal articles and other materials you will need to read to learn enough about the disease to treat it. If it requires a Physician roll to do that, this probably means an hour of reading after you are done with all the research if you already know Physician. If you don't, you can assemble everything you need for the couple months of self study you'll need to earn a point in Physician (optional specialization: this disease) to understand that hour or two of material.

I feel like it's neither unrealistic nor unbalancing for Research to be SLIGHTLY more effective than that. I would allow Research to act as a complementary skill for default use (Edit: and also to offset familiarity penalties) of a variety of IQ based skills, including Physician, provided you have both the time and access to appropriate materials.

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by benz72

If a knowledge skill doesn't provide a specific bit of information, research should be able to be used as a '2nd try'.
E.g. My chemistry skill roll failed and I couldn't map the process for synthesizing trinitrotoluene. Fortunately I can hit the library and look for that specific answer with a research roll.
If time were critical I might have been out of luck, since research takes too long.

Note that Chemistry is both the skill of having academic knowledge of chemical processes AND the skill of being able to perform chemical reactions safely and effectively. Finding out the method used to synthesize trinitrotoluene is a core function of Research, no problem there. Synthesizing trinitrotoluene, however you find out about it, would also require the Chemistry skill (although, as I said, I'd allow Research to act as a complementary skill for that, given the right circumstances). If all you want to now is how TNT is made without actually doing so, Research is probably sufficient.

[benz72]

Originally Posted by gjc8

Note that Chemistry is both the skill of having academic knowledge of chemical processes AND the skill of being able to perform chemical reactions safely and effectively. Finding out the method used to synthesize trinitrotoluene is a core function of Research, no problem there. Synthesizing trinitrotoluene, however you find out about it, would also require the Chemistry skill (although, as I said, I'd allow Research to act as a complimentary skill for that, given the right circumstances). If all you want to now is how TNT is made without actually doing so, Research is probably sufficient.

Very true. I had in my mind envisioned the PC trying to stop the process safely. I think this is more of a knowledge use of the skill (turn off this pump) than an active use (set up the lab and produce some). Rereading what I typed, I totally failed to convey that.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I think the thing here is that Research doesn't let you *do* anything with the information. If all you care about is a particular fact, you don't need any other skills. If you have to physically do something with it, or reason from it to some other conclusion, which is after all what you usually want information for, you'll need another skill. It's the same principle as Intelligence Analysis or Observation really. They all let you acquire information, they don't let you use it for anything in particular.

This is the best summary of the most important point IMHO.
To use Medical Research as an example. You dont have access to all the material so a Physician may get a bonus by using better databases and resources. The non medical person can research and learn everything about a disease and may even learn stuff their doctor does not know about it.
However to apply that knowledge requires sifting through reviews and other skills to see what is accurate (I would say most of this can still be Reasearch, with crit success or failure meaning you believed the wrong/right journals).
If it requiires drugs then your off to a doc or pharmacist for help.
If it requires treatment your going to need help for many cases.
But research is enough to let you treat minor injuries in most cases.
This is primarily true of skills with a default.

Lawyers have much information blocked from the public and special databases they have access to that most do not. But anyone can research what laws are on the books. So same thing as medical stuff.