Duplication + Shapeshifting

[Plane]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

You can treat an Ally with Minion however you want, they cannot leave (that is why it is an enhancement, as you can abuse them to your heart's content without any penalty).

There seems to be a contrast between "continues to serve no matter what" on B38 vs SE42:

roll loyalty for other Minions randomly, applying the modifiers for involuntary relationships

SE39's table based on B518 can either boost or lower Loyalty somewhat, and SE76's "Loyalty Results" outcomes appear to apply so long as loyalty is below 20 (where you don't roll).

If you drop below Very Good then anything beyond a "reasonable hazard" sounds like it could cause a Good Loyalty to flee from that hazard, even though it prob won't cause them to flee your service...

Neutral means they will leave if a "clearly better" position is available, while Poor drops "clearly".

Bad normally allows you to leave w/ "moderate temptation" while Very Bad has them just debating whether to abandon you or sell you out... w/ Disastrous hatred meaning they really want to betray you, which sounds like the only thing that might keep them sticking around.

Loyalty results clearly divert from "continues to serve" because it's not really service if they're working against you, right? So if it diverts from that it should be able to divert from "stay" too.

But there should clearly be some kind of benefit to taking the +50% enhancement, and if it's not automatic Loyalty 20 then I'm not sure how we represent it interacting with sub-20 Loyalty.

[AlexanderHowl]

Loyalty does not matter for Ally, only for hirelings.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Loyalty does not matter for Ally, only for hirelings.

SE41 "A willing Ally or Patron normally has Very Good or Excellent loyalty"
SE42 "Allies normally have Very Good loyalty" .. "An Unwilling Ally has Very Bad orDisastrous loyalty."
SE43 (Loyalty in Play) "used to decide how an NPC behaves when breaking faith seems advantageous, or when keeping it puts him in mortal danger"

Seems like it would apply.

[AlexanderHowl]

Social Engineering is not RAW, the book itself says that it is just an optional expansion of social rules for use by groups who enjoy such things. By the rules in Basic, Loyalty only applies to hirelings, it does not really apply to Ally (especially when it comes to Ally with the Minion modifier). The 'loyalty' of an Ally is found in their frequency of appearance. Anyway, there are many circumstances where an Ally could have a loyalty between Very Bad and Very Good.

For example, the family butler may be an Ally to the spoiled scion of wealthy family because the head of the family, whom they admire, told them to look after their child. They may only have a Neutral opinion of the child but, since they have a Very Good opinion of the head of the family, they appear on a 15- for the child. Heck, they could loathe the child, but they are willing to put up with the snot-nosed brat because they love the head of the family.

Conversely, a slave may befriend the young scion of a family that she detests who owns her, whose head assigned her to be the concubine of his youngest child after he grew bored with her. She may like the young man, she may actually even love him, but her hatred for his family (and his father) means that she will betray his family at a drop of the hat. If she gets an opportunity to harm his family, she may feel sorrow if he is harmed, but his safety matters less than her revenge.

[oneofmanynameless]

Not that this discussion is particularly germane to the original topic. But for what it's worth:

First. Remember the rules are descriptive and not prescriptive. So for ally they're meant to describe certain kinds of relationships with autonomous entities modeled as NPCs.

Originally Posted by Plane

SE41 "A willing Ally or Patron normally has Very Good or Excellent loyalty"
SE42 "Allies normally have Very Good loyalty" .. "An Unwilling Ally has Very Bad orDisastrous loyalty."
SE43 (Loyalty in Play) "used to decide how an NPC behaves when breaking faith seems advantageous, or when keeping it puts him in mortal danger"

Seems like it would apply.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Social Engineering is not RAW, the book itself says that it is just an optional expansion of social rules for use by groups who enjoy such things. By the rules in Basic, Loyalty only applies to hirelings, it does not really apply to Ally (especially when it comes to Ally with the Minion modifier). The 'loyalty' of an Ally is found in their frequency of appearance. Anyway, there are many circumstances where an Ally could have a loyalty between Very Bad and Very Good.

For example, the family butler may be an Ally to the spoiled scion of wealthy family because the head of the family, whom they admire, told them to look after their child. They may only have a Neutral opinion of the child but, since they have a Very Good opinion of the head of the family, they appear on a 15- for the child. Heck, they could loathe the child, but they are willing to put up with the snot-nosed brat because they love the head of the family.

Conversely, a slave may befriend the young scion of a family that she detests who owns her, whose head assigned her to be the concubine of his youngest child after he grew bored with her. She may like the young man, she may actually even love him, but her hatred for his family (and his father) means that she will betray his family at a drop of the hat. If she gets an opportunity to harm his family, she may feel sorrow if he is harmed, but his safety matters less than her revenge.

BS 36: "An NPC Ally, on the other hand, is wholly reliable. Perhaps you fought side by side in a long war, trained under the same master, or grew up in the same village. The two of you must trust each other implicitly. You travel together, fight back-to-back, share rations in hard times, and trade watches through the night."
BS 37: "Your Ally is usually agreeable to your suggestions, but he is not your puppet. He will disagree with you from time to time. An Ally may try to dissuade you from a plan that seems foolish to him - and if he can't talk you out of the plan, he may refuse to cooperate. An Ally may even cause problems for you: picking fights, landing in jail, insulting a high noble... of course, the ally will also try to bail you out when you make mistakes."
BS 38: "Blatant, prolonged, or severe betrayal will break the trust between you and your Ally, and he will leave you permanently. If you drive your Ally off in this way, the points you spent on him are gone, reducing your point value. Leading your Ally into danger is all right. As long as you face the same danger and are a responsible leader."

That description of an ally implies that an ally is (in social engineering terms) an NPC with a loyalty of at least 18+ and who will go adventuring with you. They are wholly reliable, trusting, and devoted so long as you don't grossly mistreat them. If the GM and table at large decide they want to handle deciding what constitutes "blatant, prolonged, or severe betrayal" via the loyalty and social engineering rules I see no reason why they shouldn't apply. This is an NPC that you have a relationship with, that's what social engineering rules (optional though they may be) are for.

The butler might be an ally of that scions parent, but is not sufficiently loyal to or implicitly trusting of the scion them self to be an ally on the scions character sheet. The scion has a patron, and the patron sends his butler ally to take care of the scion when the patron isn't around.

The slave is definitely not sufficiently loyal to their master, no matter their feelings for the master. They are not wholly reliable, trusting, and devoted and will absolutely abandon or betray them given an opportunity for freedom or revenge. If anything, that's an enemy waiting to happen that might also count for an unreliable erotic art contact which is at most a perk really. This "ally" is just a feature of your wealth and status and ability to own slaves.

BS 38, under the description of a minion : "Your Ally continues to serve you regardless of how well you treat him. This might be due to programming, fear, awe, or lack of self-awareness. Examples include robots, zombies, and magical slaves. You are free of the usual obligation to treat your Ally well. Mistreatment might result in an inconvenient breakdown (mental or physical), but the Ally will not leave."

If that slave girl has an unremovable magic collar that ensures her utter loyalty to her master even in the face his gross and prolonged mistreatment of her and when presented an opportunity to be free or betray him, then she could be an ally with the minion enhancement. Outside of a silly campaign, this implies that the Ally is a supernatural or technological slave or that they have substantial mental health issues of the "delusion (master is good to me)" variety.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Social Engineering is not RAW, the book itself says that it is just an optional expansion of social rules for use by groups who enjoy such things. By the rules in Basic, Loyalty only applies to hirelings,

B518 applies it to slaves too, and "less predictable than hirelings" means they don't count as hirelings.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

it does not really apply to Ally (especially when it comes to Ally with the Minion modifier)

A slave sounds suspiciously like an Ally who is Unwilling, especially one who is unwilling like the Bound Petty Demon.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The 'loyalty' of an Ally is found in their frequency of appearance.

B37 says FOA is "If your Ally appears"

B38's example for failed FOA rolls for Familiars is "sleeping" or "reporting to a demon lord" which doesn't sound like disloyalty so much as unavoidable circumstances.

B44 for Contact similar uses "busy or cannot be located" on failed rolls.

RPing the loyalty of an ally seems like something you'd do distinct from FOA.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

butler may be an Ally to the spoiled scion of wealthy family because the head of the family, whom they admire, told them to look after their child.
They may only have a Neutral opinion of the child but, since they have a Very Good opinion of the head of the family, they appear on a 15- for the child.
Heck, they could loathe the child, but they are willing to put up with the snot-nosed brat because they love the head of the family.

I guess willingness could incorporate into FOA somewhat, though it could also be due to circumstances. The familiar for example might NEED to sleep or just WANT to sleep. I don't know if the reason would matter as much as the outcome?

Butler would prob have separate loyalty to the child and the family head, and where loyalty-to-child fails to compel him, loyalty-to-head would.

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

BS 36: "An NPC Ally, on the other hand, is wholly reliable. Perhaps you fought side by side in a long war, trained under the same master, or grew up in the same village. The two of you must trust each other implicitly. You travel together, fight back-to-back, share rations in hard times, and trade watches through the night."

BS 37: "Your Ally is usually agreeable to your suggestions, but he is not your puppet. He will disagree with you from time to time. An Ally may try to dissuade you from a plan that seems foolish to him - and if he can't talk you out of the plan, he may refuse to cooperate. An Ally may even cause problems for you: picking fights, landing in jail, insulting a high noble... of course, the ally will also try to bail you out when you make mistakes."

BS 38: "Blatant, prolonged, or severe betrayal will break the trust between you and your Ally, and he will leave you permanently. If you drive your Ally off in this way, the points you spent on him are gone, reducing your point value. Leading your Ally into danger is all right. As long as you face the same danger and are a responsible leader."

That description of an ally implies that an ally is (in social engineering terms) an NPC with a loyalty of at least 18+ and who will go adventuring with you.

B561 rates "Very Good" as 16-18 and VG is what SE42 says Allies "normally" are, so 16/17 should also be "normal" loyalty for Allies too.

This might lead us to assume that "below Very Good" allies might just be unwilling ones, but I don't think so...

SE42 said "willing" Allies are normally VG or Excellent (19+) which means there should be unusual situations where "willing" Allies are neither of those, with sub-16 loyalty. So at bare minimum a Loyalty of 15 (merely "Good", not "Very Good") should be at least one extra option for Willing allies.

"likes ... and is helpful within reasonable everyday limits"
"Requests for aid are granted if the request is reasonable."
"offer helpful advice"
"requests for information are successful"
"likes the PCs or the Job"
"loyal works hard"
"accepts any reasonable hazard that the PCs accept"

Sounds a lot like a willing ally. Maybe what the Ally advantage buys is just FOA so they're actually around to help?

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

The slave is definitely not sufficiently loyal to their master,
no matter their feelings for the master.
They are not wholly reliable, trusting, and devoted and will absolutely abandon or betray them given an opportunity for freedom or revenge.

You can actually get a loyalty slave, it's just unpredictable due to the 2d roll on B518: 8 and 9 gives penalties to loyalty while 10 is a potential bonus (req good treatment) and 11 is a potential penalty (req bad treatment) and 12 is Loyalty 20 because they coincidentally have the Slave Mentality disadvantage (kind of a weird one there)

Loyalty 20 auto-passing all checks doesn't mean it can't drop, of course. B519 "Changes in Loyalty" lets "botched mission" reduce it, and there's no roll to mitigate it that a 20+ can auto-pass like w/ Great Danger.

Makes me wonder if a lot of "botched mission" results for a necromancer could gradually reduce Zombie loyalty to 19 and cause some problems where they lose their programming and just become masterless.

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

BS 38, under the description of a minion : "Your Ally continues to serve you regardless of how well you treat him.
This might be due to programming, fear, awe, or lack of self-awareness.

Powers makes it clear with the variant of Summonable that was eventually renamed Conjured in DF9 that Minion does not guarantee cooperation though: you need to make a reaction roll to see if whatever you summons helps you at all. Minion just seems to represent not penalizing you for being disloyal to them.

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

Examples include robots, zombies, and magical slaves. You are free of the usual obligation to treat your Ally well. Mistreatment might result in an inconvenient breakdown (mental or physical), but the Ally will not leave."

If they have a mental breakdown they aren't "continuing to serve" at the moment of that breakdown... so maybe it is just an inability to voluntarily move away from the Minion's master unless permitted?

"roll loyalty for other Minions randomly, applying the modifiers for involuntary relationships" (SE42) means Minions can have sub-20 loyalties: SE didn't really introduce this since Powers/DF already touched on that by having a (replaceable) Conjured Minion make a reaction roll, with Talent adding to that roll like Charisma.

One key thing to remember I guess is that failing loyalty checks isn't "total betrayal", B519 only requires it to mean "just means he let his employers down" and "served his own interests".

In the case of Ally/Minion that could just be something as minor of "I told them to wash the entire hallway and do nothing else until it was completed, but they took a bathroom break halfway through".

That's not going to apply to a Zombie in all likelihood as I would speculate "doesn't need to evacuate liquid/solid wastes" is built into Doesn't Eat/Drink. The more durable your minion is, the less things they need to do for their "self-interest", so even if they fail a loyalty check, continuing to follow orders may actually be in their self-interest.

I wouldn't say that a failed loyalty check should OBLIGATE a minion to let down their employer. ESPECIALLY if letting down your employer works against your self-interest (ie your employer will fire you or even kill you if you don't complete the work) then they should still have the option to cooperate AS IF loyal, but they're merely feigning it, not legitimately loyal, at that moment.

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

If that slave girl has an unremovable magic collar that ensures her utter loyalty to her master even in the face his gross and prolonged mistreatment of her and when presented an opportunity to be free or betray him, then she could be an ally with the minion enhancement.

Sounds more like a Unwilling Ally who is a victim of Mind Control that gives a Compulsion or Sense of Duty?

Touches on the idea that "Sense of Duty: PC" should not really reduce the cost of an ally, it should probably be inverted into an advantage in terms of pricing them.

[oneofmanynameless]

Originally Posted by Plane

B561 rates "Very Good" as 16-18 and VG is what SE42 says Allies "normally" are, so 16/17 should also be "normal" loyalty for Allies too.

This might lead us to assume that "below Very Good" allies might just be unwilling ones, but I don't think so...

SE42 said "willing" Allies are normally VG or Excellent (19+) which means there should be unusual situations where "willing" Allies are neither of those, with sub-16 loyalty. So at bare minimum a Loyalty of 15 (merely "Good", not "Very Good") should be at least one extra option for Willing allies.

"likes ... and is helpful within reasonable everyday limits"
"Requests for aid are granted if the request is reasonable."
"offer helpful advice"
"requests for information are successful"
"likes the PCs or the Job"
"loyal works hard"
"accepts any reasonable hazard that the PCs accept"

Sounds a lot like a willing ally. Maybe what the Ally advantage buys is just FOA so they're actually around to help?

A high loyalty rating that won't get tempted by ordinary circumstances and yeah, an FOA because they will be around to help. I think the high loyalty rating is essential for a willing ally. 16-17 sounds fine. You're not failing that loyalty roll except in very rare situations.

Originally Posted by Plane

You can actually get a loyalty slave, it's just unpredictable due to the 2d roll on B518: 8 and 9 gives penalties to loyalty while 10 is a potential bonus (req good treatment) and 11 is a potential penalty (req bad treatment) and 12 is Loyalty 20 because they coincidentally have the Slave Mentality disadvantage (kind of a weird one there)

Loyalty 20 auto-passing all checks doesn't mean it can't drop, of course. B519 "Changes in Loyalty" lets "botched mission" reduce it, and there's no roll to mitigate it that a 20+ can auto-pass like w/ Great Danger.

Makes me wonder if a lot of "botched mission" results for a necromancer could gradually reduce Zombie loyalty to 19 and cause some problems where they lose their programming and just become masterless.

Disgruntled Zombie minions is a pretty entertaining thought. Although I imagine in most games Zombies are going to have minion and not be subject to reduced loyalty as in most games it wouldn't make sense for Zombies to have loyalty ratings or opinions about their treatment... or even be subject to social engineering rules at all.

Originally Posted by Plane

Sounds more like a Unwilling Ally who is a victim of Mind Control that gives a Compulsion or Sense of Duty?

I forgot about the unwilling modifier. I'll give you it sounds like an Unwilling Ally.
And I'd probably assume the collar would give Reprogrammable if it mattered. But assuming it can never be removed or destroyed by any means you have yourself a (horribly immorally acquired) minion.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

I imagine in most games Zombies are going to have minion and not be subject to reduced loyalty as in most games it wouldn't make sense for Zombies to have loyalty ratings or opinions about their treatment

Ah but that's the fun part about "botched mission" is that it's not necessarily about mistreatment or abuse at all: a minion might be fine with that, but become disloyal because he's unimpressed at what a failure of a boss you are?

Of course if they "rebel" (which for a zombie is probably as extensive as "I'm going to stand here and pretend I didn't hear master because he's so lame") you can "forgive" them (B519) to get a +1 to loyalty, just so long as it doesn't drop below 16...

I don't know if this requires "repent and beg" though (hard to imagine a skeleton doing that, sounds like something which would require a sense of preservation largely absent in those with Slave Mentality)

It sounds like it should since if your master just "forgives" you without asking, maybe he didn't even notice you failed him at all, which might lower your opinion of master further.

Slave Mentality also seems to have the effect of "automatic loyalty 20" (B518) forever (B519 "will not demure") so to actually allow loyalty to drop below 20 might actually require getting rid of Slave Mentality first?

That would get rid of the "rebellious zombies" problem unless some foe hit them with Affliction (Negated Slave Mentality +40%) which stuck on them for a long period of time, or if the GM allowed them to buy off that disadvantage with earned CP.

To avoid the latter problem, perhaps some necromancers regularly kill off zombies and recreate them? That would guarantee none of your minions have gradually lost their Automaton status, though it would also mean they would've lost other possibly useful improvements.

B125 "Cannot Learn" (which the undead templates have) prevents buying mental advantages but doesn't say you can't buy off mental DISadvantages... so maybe B291 is still an option? "Game-World Justification" doesn't appear to be needed at all because you can "simply assume you got over your problem" which in theory would apply not just to Slave Mentality but even Cannot Learn itself?

It seems possibly off-concept to interpret this way though... -1 to IQ is a 20 point disadvantage after all, and Cannot Learn prevents buying THAT off...

If you can't buy Fearlessness then why should you be able to buy off Fearfulness?

In that sense, I think maybe buying off a mental disadvantage could be viewed as buying a mental advantage which counteracts it. Like how if you were Callous, buying it off is tantamount to buying Not Callous [5] as a mental advantage.

Not Cannot Learn [30] (or "Can Learn" for simplicity) would thus be a mental advantage they can't buy for nature of Cannot Learn prohibiting it?

You can still buy PHYSICAL advantages of course, so someone with Cannot Learn who wants to learn might well buy Affliction (Can Learn +300%) [40] to use on themself (though they'd have to make an IQ-10 roll to have the initiative to do so if they also have Slave Mentality... so with Zombies/Skeletons/Mummies it's more likely to be an external agent who initiates this process)

There's implied to be some way of those made via Zombie losing Cannot Learn since the Servitor Skeleton no longer have it, despite "can’t exactly learn, some such beings can apparently benefit from practice"

Perhaps one could shift "Can Learn" from mental>physical by adding "requires HT roll" or "requires DX roll" or something along those lines. This would make it skirt the "unpurchaseable" restriction of Cannot Learn.

Perhaps made more cheaply if Can Learn were Aspected in some way, like "Combat Only" for Zombies who could become better sword-fighters but not learn Alchemy.

Either way, physical advantages are often harder to purchase though in B291 terms, needing good explanations or extraordinary circumstances. You'd need to make "Can Learn (aspected: combat only -20% requires HT roll -10%) [21]" a new "Learnable Advantage" in addition to B294's standard ones to explain how normal Zombies can upgrade somehow to Servitor status and have Cannot Learn gradually removed by their own exploits.

Another interesting way to make this cheaper might be to buy it as an Alternative Ability to one of the mental advantages that a Zombie comes built with, such as Indomitable.

Maybe somehow they are able to temporarily gain the ability to learn at moments where they make themselves vulnerable to Influence Skills?

M14's "Inventing New Spells" might be an option. M15 suggests 1 energy per 3 CP of change, so you could design a spell which endows Can Learn in part (minimum cost 6 at -80% means 2 energy, 1 to maintain) or in full (10 energy, 5 to maintain) if that's something not possible to accomplish under the printed canon spells. A necromancer might do that to improve his Zombies, giving them the ability to learn.

I'm just not sure what duration this is supposed to be, whether it's a second, a minute or an hour would make worlds of difference in how long you could maintain the ability of your zombie to learn for.

If I had to guess by trying to design the equivalent of an existing spell... the energy:bonus ratio for primary attributes 2:1 ... M135 "Wisdom" charges FOUR energy for +1 to IQ though, so maybe it costs double because 1 minute is longer than it ought to last normally? Perhaps +1 to IQ for merely 2 energy would be a lot less, like 10 seconds or even 1 second at a time?

Attribute boosts also seem like an exception to the "half to maintain" guideline on M14 since Wisdom costs the same to maintain. Only attribute penalties seem to be 1/2 cost maintenance.

[AlexanderHowl]

Minions cannot rebel, that is the point of the Minion enhancement, they will continue to serve you regardless of circumstances.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Minions cannot rebel, that is the point of the Minion enhancement, they will continue to serve you regardless of circumstances.

There needs to be a mechanical effect to an Ally having sub-20 Loyalty (which can apply to +50% minions) and failing a loyalty check is only "served his own interests" in easy/mortal/profitable/wise situations.

You can an Ally who is Loyalty 20 (or even higher, like Loyalty 30, there seems to be no upper cap on it) without requiring Slave Mentality, and that doesn't require Minion either.

MinionE and UnwillingL share a benefit

"free of the usual obligation to treat your Ally well"
"do not have to treat him as well as you would a normal Ally"

SE42 basically even equates them as equivalent exceptions to standard ally policy "if he gets into trouble, he has to be gotten out":

This doesn’t apply to a Minion or an Unwilling Ally.

You don't actually HAVE TO get non-minion non-unwilling allies out of trouble: but if you don't then there's a ramification (no bonus CP)

Minions roll as Involuntary Relationships: they're not guaranteed to start out "Very Bad" or "Disastrous" (like if you take the Unwilling limitaiton) but using SE39's table means they might suffer a penalty and end up there if you get a bad roll.

SE40 let's you sub an influence roll (success boosts to good, loyalty 15) to whatever reaction you had early on if it was sub-15, getting you "reasonable hazard" thresholds for your minions.

Refusing to brave unreasonable hazards isn't something I would describe as "leaving service". Failure to comply isn't rebellion or abandonment.

Minions should be able to disagree, try to dissuade you, or refuse to cooperate.

I think it's this part from B37 standard for Allies that Minion removes:

Blatant, prolonged, or severe betrayal will break the trust between you and your
Ally and he wiill leave you permanently. If you drive your Ally off in this way, the points you spent on him are gone,

It seems like a Minion's loyalty could drop super-low (0 or less... there doesn't seem to be any minimum to B560's Reaction Rolls or to Loyalty) to the point where they hate you and will betray you at first chance.

In many cases this is going to lead you to losing an Unwilling Ally: you're not obligated to get them out of trouble but if you "endanger them" (like fighting back when they attack you, for example) they can rebel if the outcome of rebellion is less sever: you lost your 50% character points investment in them as a mostly-uncooperative often-sabotaging meat shield.

This can't happen (no rebellion, no leaving) just by endangering them if they're Unwilling+Minion because there's no "I can leave if I'm endangered" option for minions.

Inability to leave (deprive master of advantage meaning he can't roll FOA to bring you around) doesn't mean "necessity of cooperation" or even "inability to sabotage" though, I think "continues to serve" just basically means "continues to show up" because merely being present is a service in and of itself: "continues to serve" isn't "serves at the best of his capacity" or even "can't sabotage twice as badly as he helps"

That's probably why you would want to get the Minion option for someone who's Unwilling: so you can compel them to serve (and not sabotage) without that being grounds for them to flee you.

Sympathy is also a good controlling option: an unwilling ally (even one who is a minion) can just attack you if he wants: but if he will die (or even be dropped to 0 HP) by killing you, then that could serve to dissuade. The downside being that you're preventing him from helping you if you ever get stunned/KO'd since then minion will be also.

How a minion actually gets free would be self improvement: by becoming a higher-value character faster than the PC will pay for, the PC is going to decide how to adjust his advantage (lower FoA as ally, drop the Minion enhancement, add the Unwilling limitation, take the Ally as a Dependent or increase his FoA/importance as a Dependent if he already is one) to avoid losing the minion as an ally entirely.

Another option might be to lead them down a dark path of corruption, since corruption can eat away at advantages, which could include Ally (losing control of the demon you once commanded)