Multiple Copies of the same Ability and Combining Levels

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by 'Uniqueness', Powers - Page 12

Multiple Copies of the Same Advantage
If the advantage comes in levels, you can instead opt to pay full price for both versions. This lets you add the levels together in a situation where both powers would work, provided your powers aren’t opposed in some way (GM’s decision).

Q1) If I have a character with Divine Favor 5 [20] and a separate copy of Divine Favor 6 [25] (but for the same Divine Patron), can I combined them to give me Divine Favor 8 [45]? Using the Points Total rather than simply combining the Levels which would be cheating!

It may seem odd to want to buy 2 copies, but it's not against the rules (as far as I know), and would allow for 2 independent uses of DF or their respective LPs.
PK's latest House Rule '15. Expanded Rules for Alternative Abilities', makes this less useful/relevant, but still.

Q2) If I have Learned Prayers for each of the DF5 and DF6 abilities, can I consider them as part of a combined DF8 instance? Obviously losing the multiple usage of the 2 independent sets.
Q2b) - If so, is it unreasonable to shift LPs from one instance to the other (as long as I'm not trying to shift a Level 6 LP to the DF5 Set.) when treating them independently.

Q3) Could I buy a Learned Prayer for the combined level of DF? e.g. Protection from Evil (Enhanced) - ('level' 7) for the 1/5 AA cost?

Points-wise there doesn't seem to be an issue, and each individual configuration is technically fine - any instance of the DF5+LPs set, DF6+LPs and DF8+all of the LPs is fine, but the flexibility seems to be more than a Zero-Point Feature; more like Modular Abilities - even though technically the starting point of Combining the DF5 and DF6 to get DF8 is covered by the rule quoted at the top.

[mehrkat]

[QUOTE=SCAR;1544984]Q1) If I have a character with Divine Favor 5 [20] and a separate copy of Divine Favor 6 [25] (but for the same Divine Patron), can I combined them to give me Divine Favor 8 [45]? Using the Points Total rather than simply combining the Levels which would be cheating!

I would not allow this as the divine favor learned prayers are alternative abilities. My understanding of Alternative abilities is that they must all "fit" within a single more expensive ability.

I'm not sure I would allow multiple divine favors at all even for the same god. I can't imagine a justification for it. For different gods. In general gods in my worlds are jealous of their "hands" and wouldn't share one.

Could you give a "real world" example that makes multiple instances make sense?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

I wouldn't allow you to purchase the advantage multiple times to begin with. My understanding is that (A) bears an informal stamp of approval while (B) isn't something that should be permitted (edit) unless both Divine Favors have a different power modifier attached (in which case being linked together into an ability|alternate-ability array is odd). (end edit)

1. Divine Favor + Learned Prayer (! Alternate) [+ Learned Prayer (Alternate), ...]
2. Divine Favor + Divine Favor [+ Learned Prayer (Alternate), ...]

(edit)

If your GM allows (B), then I wouldn't suggest allowing the Divine Favor to stack on the basis of points nor on the basis of levels because (as you note) it sounds more like a cosmic modular ability than an ability|alternate-ability array.

[RyanW]

If I allowed Divine Favor A and Divine Favor B, I certainly would not allow you to treat it as Divine Favor (A+B) (Or any variation thereof).

If you did that to get sneaky around the "one prayer at a time" rule, you are getting what you paid for for that purpose only. It wouldn't be reasonable to allow you to treat it as a single larger version. Someone who actually bought Divine Favor 8 [45] would rightfully question why he can't use Devotion, Protection from Evil, and Confidence at the same time. In other words, if scheme A is official but inferior in every way to scheme B, assume scheme B violates the spirit of the rules, if not the letter.

However, any time a player invokes "it's not against the rules" my munchkin detector goes crazy.

[SCAR]

The section on Uniqueness in Powers that I quoted is quite clear that you can buy the same Ability more than once - in that case it's generally because they have different Power Modifiers.

On Powers.p46; Partially Limited Abilities: You can buy DR5 and DR5 and combined them to get DR10 - in that case one has a Limited, Fire option, but still its the same ability bought more than once and combined.

My example is buying 2 copies of the same ability. They don't have different Power Modifiers, or any Modifiers - but that shouldn't matter from a rules perspective.
It's a Meta-Game matter as to whether a character can have Divine Favor from 2 different gods -in some cases multiple gods of the same pantheon might be quite willing to grant favors to the same individual -but that's not a rules issue.

As for distinct sets of AAs, if a character does have Divine Favor from 2 different gods (which should be fine from a rules perspective), then each would be a distinct set of AAs - which is perfectly OK by the rules.

I would agree that buying 2 copies of Divine Favor, for the same god doesn't seem quite right - but I cannot see anything mechanically wrong from a rules perspective. And since each is a distinct Ability, each can be used independently, which has mechanical advantages.

My questions then stand - per Powers p12, combining 2 copies of the same levelled ability gives the effects as per the combined level (in this case from the point cost, but still the same), etc.

[Mathulhu]

Look at just the mechanics and work backwards to the idea.

Two copies of Divine Favor let you use multiple minor powers at once whilst not allowing access to the bigger powers. Also it lets you avoid being completely crippled by a bad result.

Your god likes you a lot but doesn't trust you with the big guns.

Back to the original question.

Access to the high level Alternate Abilities is the power you gave up to get the reliability and options of the lower level. So no you cannot have an alternate ability based on the combined total.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by RyanW

If I allowed Divine Favor A and Divine Favor B, I certainly would not allow you to treat it as Divine Favor (A+B) (Or any variation thereof).

Mechanically though, (as per Powers p12, under Uniqueness), you can combined 2 levelled abilities to get the benefit of the combined level - and as long as I'm combining the point cost and not the actual levels, I'm not cheating.

Originally Posted by RyanW

If you did that to get sneaky around the "one prayer at a time" rule, you are getting what you paid for for that purpose only. It wouldn't be reasonable to allow you to treat it as a single larger version. Someone who actually bought Divine Favor 8 [45] would rightfully question why he can't use Devotion, Protection from Evil, and Confidence at the same time. In other words, if scheme A is official but inferior in every way to scheme B, assume scheme B violates the spirit of the rules, if not the letter.

I'm not trying to be sneaking, I'm trying to get to a specific end point, going step by step; and you've sort of hit on where I'm going.

If the character with DF4 and DF5 for [45] points can combined them into DF8 [45]; then why can't the character with DF8 [45] 'split' that into DF4 and DF5? If its mechanically valid to combine levelled abilities, then it might logically be valid to split levelled abilities into multiple smaller chunks - if there was a reason to do so.

I'm definitely getting something like the benefits of Cosmic Power (Slotted) Modular Abilities for Divine Favor; but I'm trying to work out where the boundaries and point breaks for the various rules are.

Currently I'm of the opinion that Alternate Abilities (especially something like Divine Favor, which supports a very flexible definition of what is allowed in an Alternate Ability - which I do like), is a much better points deal than Modular Abilities for certain types of ability - especially with PKs (not yet canon, but has editorial blessing) House Rule for multi use AAs.

Originally Posted by RyanW

However, any time a player invokes "it's not against the rules" my munchkin detector goes crazy.

In this case its a function of my trying to keep within the basic principles of the rules, for each step.
I well appreciate that there is a difference between 'it's illegal' and 'it's not against the rules' - the problem is figuring out where the divide is!

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Mathulhu

Look at just the mechanics and work backwards to the idea.

Two copies of Divine Favor let you use multiple minor powers at once whilst not allowing access to the bigger powers. Also it lets you avoid being completely crippled by a bad result.

Your god likes you a lot but doesn't trust you with the big guns.

Back to the original question.

Access to the high level Alternate Abilities is the power you gave up to get the reliability and options of the lower level. So no you cannot have an alternate ability based on the combined total.

I can agree that this sounds like good sense - buying DF4 and DF5 for [45] instead of DF8 [45] is a trade off of multi use vs higher power; and thematically that make sense.

But is it actually against the rules to combined them?
1. The text in Powers would seem to support combining the DF4 and DF5 into an effective DF8 - at least as far as the Divine Favor ability goes. - I can easily perform a couple of minor miracles (through Learned or General Prayers), but if I really need it - I can make a (Level 8) General Prayer with the effective level of the combined abilities.

2. The first real stumbling block is the question of whether the effective level of DF8 (which has been paid for) qualifies as the Primary Ability for the purposes of buying a Level 6-8 Prayer as an AA (since it would be beyond the scope of the 2 base abilities).

I think it would be a generous GM who allowed this (without working backwards from where I think I'm trying to get) - but I don't see that it's entirely mechanically wrong - certainly it meets the criteria of having paid sufficient points for the Primary (most expensive) Ability!

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by SCAR

...

To use the Partially Limited Abilities stacking, you would need to do something like ... {Divine Favor 5 [20] + Divine Favor 6 (w/o Divine Favor 5, -20; Limitation, -20%) [4]} ... for it to be even close to rules-compliant (the w/o Advantage, -X construction isn't rules-compliant; even though I favor it's usage =p ).

Divine Favor 5 [20] and Divine Favor 6 [25] don't stack at all as its' the same advantage bought with a different frequency of appearance.

Poke Kromm and/or PK to see what their opinions on the subject are?

[Mathulhu]

Beyond the "I am a GM and that sounds dodgy so no" rule I don't know any powers rule that specifically prohibits combining powers like that, but I also don't know any that does.

As a GM, if you have bought the most expensive power (DF8) and then want to use DF4 and DF5 together and bought them as alternate abilities I would let you sue them together. To get the points balanced so nicely I am assuming we had discussed it during character creation.

I see a lot of Alternate Abilities that are exactly 1/5 the cost of the original. I like the idea of them being more flexible and less all or nothing. So I would not have a problem with several being used at once provided their total cost is not more than 1/5 of the original.