Big Boss Advice

[Mr Dalton]

Okay, so been a while since I came here for advice. Once you pick up the rules, a lot of things become more intuitive. But here's one that I want some advice on - how to design an over the top final boss.

In Pathfinder (which is what I come from) big things like what i have in mind are just a matter of being leveled up enough to face and you just make it have a large amount of hit points and do a large amount of damage and so forth.
But, and this is a point I like about GURPS, that kind of power creep just isn't a thing here. No matter how much you "level up," nothing is ever truly absurd. Characters HP and DR are typically going to hover around a specific range, the amount of damage they do isn't going to go through the roof, and in general an enemy that was dangerous to you when you first started out will still be dangerous to you later on - though maybe a little bit less.

So, what's the best way to design something that you want to have that "epic final boss" feel of a high level monster in Pathfinder that isn't just a party wipe?

What I'm looking to build is basically a creature that is responsible for the entire pocket dimension the story has taken place in - a demonic entity using the dimension as a feeding ground and has to be powerful enough to keep that dimension alive (the nature of the dimension makes it unstable without said entity's efforts to keep it going).
It's massive in size because it grows as it feeds and has thousands of years to do so. But it basically feeds by incorporating the dead bodies of those it consumes into its own mass, so there's like a central clump of a main body, and then branches spreading off from that like tentacles. By design, it also has a weak spot that's about the size of a human skull and made of metal that has to be removed before it can actually strike it's core and kill it - otherwise you're just severing extraneous mass, of which it has an effectively infinite amount.

Statwise, how would people recommend building this thing so that it has that epic big bad feel, but is still something they can fight?

For start, I'm thinking the tentacle appendages might be treated as separate entities with their own HP pool and once that pool hits zero, the tentacle is severed, but beyond that, I'm not sure.

[Mr_Sandman]

In GURPS, there can be a fine line between an epic final battle, a TPK, and a grind as you just have to whittle something down until it finally dies.

Letting the party have visible success by lopping off tentacles, and thereby reducing the attacks the demon can make on them is probably a step in the right direction. Don't overdo the DR or hit points necessary to take out a tentacle. You want the players to see they can make progress with one or two good hits, or maybe three or more weak ones. Perhaps give it the ability to regrow tentacles that's fast enough to threaten them, and keeps the pressure on to finish it off, but not so fast it overwhelms them.

Make sure that the PCs have the opportunity to learn about the weakness, and a challenging path to exploiting it, that doesn't depend on hacking off all of the many tentacles first. Maybe they can take out enough tentacles on one side of the creature, so the big damage dealer can get to its main body and hack out the core, while the others defend against tentacles from the other sides making wild swings from a bad angle, and nip new growing tentacles in the bud before they can attack again.

In addition to the procedure necessary to kill the creature, it might be good if the PCs have a chance to learn something that the monster is particularly vulnerable to, so if they can use that, they have an easier time with the tentacles. It could be as simple as intuiting that cutting damage lops off the tentacles better, or they might learn that silver or some other substance burns its flesh and does extra damage. Let the players feel like they have a special edge because they learned a secret and prepared accordingly.

Be careful about the creature's attacks. They should be accurate enough to threaten the PCs and at least occasionally get past their defense, and powerful enough to get some damage past any armor they are wearing, but you probably don't want to one-shot anyone with a really good damage roll. If the party is not uniformly armored, consider something like a low-damage, magic death touch that ignores armor or electrical attack that gets most of its damage through metal armor. That might make armored players feel vulnerable, without the possibility of wiping out the least armored PC in one attack.

[Mr Dalton]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

In GURPS, there can be a fine line between an epic final battle, a TPK, and a grind as you just have to whittle something down until it finally dies.

Letting the party have visible success by lopping off tentacles, and thereby reducing the attacks the demon can make on them is probably a step in the right direction. Don't overdo the DR or hit points necessary to take out a tentacle. You want the players to see they can make progress with one or two good hits, or maybe three or more weak ones. Perhaps give it the ability to regrow tentacles that's fast enough to threaten them, and keeps the pressure on to finish it off, but not so fast it overwhelms them.

Make sure that the PCs have the opportunity to learn about the weakness, and a challenging path to exploiting it, that doesn't depend on hacking off all of the many tentacles first. Maybe they can take out enough tentacles on one side of the creature, so the big damage dealer can get to its main body and hack out the core, while the others defend against tentacles from the other sides making wild swings from a bad angle, and nip new growing tentacles in the bud before they can attack again.

In addition to the procedure necessary to kill the creature, it might be good if the PCs have a chance to learn something that the monster is particularly vulnerable to, so if they can use that, they have an easier time with the tentacles. It could be as simple as intuiting that cutting damage lops off the tentacles better, or they might learn that silver or some other substance burns its flesh and does extra damage. Let the players feel like they have a special edge because they learned a secret and prepared accordingly.

Be careful about the creature's attacks. They should be accurate enough to threaten the PCs and at least occasionally get past their defense, and powerful enough to get some damage past any armor they are wearing, but you probably don't want to one-shot anyone with a really good damage roll. If the party is not uniformly armored, consider something like a low-damage, magic death touch that ignores armor or electrical attack that gets most of its damage through metal armor. That might make armored players feel vulnerable, without the possibility of wiping out the least armored PC in one attack.

I have been drip feeding info throughout the campaign. They know it's demonic and they have a sword that's effective against this specific kind of entity (will bypass armor on it). And I'll drop a clue towards the end that will suggest that something metal will relate to how the universe was made and thus when they do eventually spot the metal plate-thing protecting its vital area, the impulse should be to remove it.

I was also thinking that since it's composed of corpses, perhaps it could reach out with a bunch of hands and grab players, slowing their movement down as they try to get through the central mass to that weak spot.

Should I maybe just have the tentacles be the only thing that physically attacks? Like, that's the only thing they can damage until they expose it's weak spot? Then the tentacles are basically just an endlessly respawning group of basic minions and the approach is to cut through enough tentacles to progress before it can regrow them, maybe? They don't have to get all the tentacles, obviously, just the ones blocking their path.

Then the fight is more a question of determining where on the creature's body they need to get to to kill it rather than actually dealing tons of damage to it. This might also play to the tank's strength, because he wields a very big greatsword and I let him create a technique that's basically Pathfinder's cleave feat (if you kill a foe, you can immediately attack an adjacent foe).

[Joxer]

I think you are in the right track. The best challenge for a party is to face several foes. A single big boss is boring, as you have to put large dr and/or hp, and it becomes boring just chump hp until it dies, and usually some PCs are not well suited for the boss and can feel useless.

I would suggest add variety of foes fo make room to every PC feels relevant. Just a swarm of tentacles can make the greatsword guy outshine everyone else.
Add ranged enemies for caster and ranged PCs to have a important task. You want everyone to feel hyped for this climax!

And if you are using tactical combat, my advice is to make the terrain another big factor. It makes fights more unique. Add pools, obstacles, narrow passages, different levels, etc. Make the PCs figure tactics on the fly to overcome or take advantage of the obstacles.

Just be sure to have all the rules revised before the game session to avoid long pauses to check the game effects of the terrain.

[Mr Dalton]

Originally Posted by Joxer

I think you are in the right track. The best challenge for a party is to face several foes. A single big boss is boring, as you have to put large dr and/or hp, and it becomes boring just chump hp until it dies, and usually some PCs are not well suited for the boss and can feel useless.

I would suggest add variety of foes fo make room to every PC feels relevant. Just a swarm of tentacles can make the greatsword guy outshine everyone else.
Add ranged enemies for caster and ranged PCs to have a important task. You want everyone to feel hyped for this climax!

And if you are using tactical combat, my advice is to make the terrain another big factor. It makes fights more unique. Add pools, obstacles, narrow passages, different levels, etc. Make the PCs figure tactics on the fly to overcome or take advantage of the obstacles.

Just be sure to have all the rules revised before the game session to avoid long pauses to check the game effects of the terrain.

The demon does have minions that serve it's ends, which I've been hyping up since I started this thing coming up on 2 years ago now. These things are the ultimate terror that everyone in the setting talks about in hushed tones as the "if they come for you, you're dead," type of creature. The holy sword the players have also works on these things and they were going to have to use it to fight through the ones guarding the entrance to the tunnels where it lairs
And since it's made up of corpses of people it's fed on, I am thinking I could bring back some of the old foes they've defeated in the past as enslaved minions to sort of bring it back to this thing having reach everywhere.

So, I'm thinking using the tentacles as separate enemies that slowly but infinitely respawn, the minions that need to be attacked with the holy sword, and some old foes for variety. The main body itself would be unkillable level 3 with an Achilles heel for the protected core and a weakness against the holy sword they've got.
If they've got to get through all that, then it probably won't matter if the exposed core only takes one or two hits from the holy sword, because the fight was getting the core exposed in the first place.

And if it all ends up being too overwhelming, I have a back-up weakness where a specific sound frequency vibrates with the metal plate, causing the demon to momentarily recoil, which I have a set-up to reveal if it seems like I guess wrong how much the players can handle.

Normally, Pathfinder style demons of this level would also have a bunch of evil cleric spells and some arcane ones as well, but that feels like overkill in the GURPS system, though I'll welcome thoughts on that.

[coronatiger]

Since this thing is so large, why not have the fight take place on it (or even inside it)? Unstable ground adds another dimension to a battle.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Joxer

I think you are in the right track. The best challenge for a party is to face several foes. A single big boss is boring, as you have to put large dr and/or hp, and it becomes boring just chump hp until it dies, and usually some PCs are not well suited for the boss and can feel useless.

I would suggest add variety of foes fo make room to every PC feels relevant. Just a swarm of tentacles can make the greatsword guy outshine everyone else.
Add ranged enemies for caster and ranged PCs to have a important task. You want everyone to feel hyped for this climax!

And if you are using tactical combat, my advice is to make the terrain another big factor. It makes fights more unique. Add pools, obstacles, narrow passages, different levels, etc. Make the PCs figure tactics on the fly to overcome or take advantage of the obstacles.

Just be sure to have all the rules revised before the game session to avoid long pauses to check the game effects of the terrain.

Undead corpses could constantly crawl out of the demons belly and attack the party. Granted those are weak fodder, but if the party dont end the thing soon enough, it will overwhelm them. Some 1 to 3 per turn should be enough.

Originally Posted by Joxer

Normally, Pathfinder style demons of this level would also have a bunch of evil cleric spells and some arcane ones as well, but that feels like overkill in the GURPS system, though I'll welcome thoughts on that.

Special abilities always give a little plus to the whole thing, instead of it just being a big thing that smashes. A demon made of corpses (have you ever seen the movie Silent Hill? The spider made of corpses? Truly terrifying stuff) could have massive mouths that spit infernal fire, the tentacles of the thing could be entrailed in the ground, so they can break from ground bellow the players, it can spit acid, deadly fogs, it can have some weird telepathic powers that entice the players to submit to it, made as a seductive voice speaking in their heads with promisses of power and pleasure, which could enlicit rolls for Terror or Will rolls to resist, while failure meaning penalties and many many other things

Players could get visions of the things they love most. The Dependant that died in another session, saying that they could be together again, that kind of stuff.

Just balance things out, if the special abilities are too much, reduce the physical prowess of the thing.

It can also be a two edge sword: successfully resisting that telepathic temptation could give them bonuses in the form of a new resolve to get rid of the blasted thing.

And, as suggested above, if the thing is big enough, it would be epic to have them figjting on top of it. Just imagine thousands or rotten arms trying to grab the players as they try to walk over a massive moving worm disguating thing to reach the spot upon which to stab it

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Special abilities always give a little plus to the whole thing, instead of it just being a big thing that smashes.

Depending on the party composition (particularly if the fight is ON the demon) making the demon Magically Resistant or its own No Mana Zone (or Anti Magic Zone) can really skew the plan.

Parties tend to have more quantity/higher quality magic resources...flipping that part of the plan (carefully done unless you want a TPK) can be quite a curveball for the party.

[Opellulo]

IMHO GURPS (and really any RPG) works best when you use the full range of what it offers you. Combat is just an aspect, take advantage of every character and skill:
- make the discovery and the approach interesting, not just four meeples in an arena
- allow PC to prepare, come out with an original plan (ambush, trap, kite) and let them put that into action
- give interesting enviroinment challenges that can hinder or favor the fight
- consider the "Big bad" as a puzzle more than a stat Block.

Taking out a whole hideout, securing a forest, defening a Village, i think those challenges are the best definition of Epic Fight

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Joxer

I think you are in the right track. The best challenge for a party is to face several foes. A single big boss is boring, as you have to put large dr and/or hp, and it becomes boring just chump hp until it dies, and usually some PCs are not well suited for the boss and can feel useless.

I would suggest add variety of foes fo make room to every PC feels relevant. Just a swarm of tentacles can make the greatsword guy outshine everyone else.
Add ranged enemies for caster and ranged PCs to have a important task. You want everyone to feel hyped for this climax!

And if you are using tactical combat, my advice is to make the terrain another big factor. It makes fights more unique. Add pools, obstacles, narrow passages, different levels, etc. Make the PCs figure tactics on the fly to overcome or take advantage of the obstacles.

Just be sure to have all the rules revised before the game session to avoid long pauses to check the game effects of the terrain.

Originally Posted by Witchking

Depending on the party composition (particularly if the fight is ON the demon) making the demon Magically Resistant or its own No Mana Zone (or Anti Magic Zone) can really skew the plan.

Parties tend to have more quantity/higher quality magic resources...flipping that part of the plan (carefully done unless you want a TPK) can be quite a curveball for the party.

That's a neat idea. It could also have a special "Aspected" mana under the options from Gurps Thaumatology; for instance, instead of Low or No Mana Zones (that would potentially turn mages useless), it could have normal (or even high) Mana, but with a twist... For example, it could be "Corrupt Mana", giving "Corruption Points" (from Gurps Horror) every time a spell is used, spells could have nasty side effects (like reducing the appearance of the caster, or giving "Unnatural Features" such as demonic wings, horns, serpentine tongues and so on)

Special abilities add an entire new plethora of different strategies to deal with the problem other than just hit/parry/dodge