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Old 05-26-2023, 01:19 PM   #61
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Wet torch

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
Eventually PCs will stop taking SOP Perks, take Common Sense, and then start smacking the GM over the head they pull this sort of nonsense.
Per RAW, Common Sense doesn't work like this, but it should. 10 SOP perks = Common Sense. Likewise, the GM should allow skill-based rolls instead of just IQ-based rolls to avoid doing something stupid.

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
If a PC fords a river, I presume they are taking precautions.
Something that needs to be defined in any RPG is "assumed level of overall PC competence."

In a cinematic or Action-type campaign, the GM can assume "baseline omnicompetence." That means default skills allow extensive defaults even for moderately difficult tasks and that character experience allows them to avoid making stupid mistakes.

In a highly realistic campaign, the GM can be much harsher. Default skill might only work for the simplest of tasks and IQ or skill rolls might be needed for even "common sense" decisions.

Let's say that you're trying to ford a river. It seems like an easy task - find a place where the water is low, keep anything that might get damaged by wet out of the water and cross. But how to you know what signs to look for to find a ford? How do you know that the bottom won't turn to muck or that there aren't potholes in an otherwise solid river bed? How to you compensate for rushing water that might sweep you off your feet? How to you get animals or vehicles across?

You'd think all these things would be obvious, but plenty of people get into serious trouble in flooded areas when they try to drive their vehicles through what appears to be just a few inches of flowing water and then get stranded or swept away. Likewise, many battles or military campaigns were affected by commanders not recognizing usable fords or choosing a bad place to ford a river.

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
If a PC fords a river, I presume they are taking precautions.
If there is a meaningful decision they need to make, like "Are you taking off your armor?" or "You have too much to carry in your pack, what are you letting get submerged?", I'll ask.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, but how you handle player decisions varies based on whether you're playing generic Dungeon Fantasy with heroic characters or modeling the actions of English knights at the Battle of Bannockburn.
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Old 05-26-2023, 01:44 PM   #62
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Wet torch

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Something that needs to be defined in any RPG is "assumed level of overall PC competence."
Well, yes and no. The issue here isn't PC competence, it's PC automation -- do you have to tell the GM that your PC is making a survival check, or should the GM automatically assume you are attempting the check when appropriate, and will tell the player to make a check in situations where there's an interesting risk of failure.
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Old 05-31-2023, 08:19 AM   #63
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Luxembourg
Default Re: Wet torch

An interesting idea for a DF treasure : the cursed fire starter, huge bonus for fire-starting, but poisonous :

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...postcount=2818
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Old 05-31-2023, 09:10 AM   #64
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Wet torch

The SOP Perk exists for games where automated PC competence is not assumed. That is, when the GM is expected to gig you for any detail you, the player, didn't explicitly mention, no matter what your character would normally do, it becomes worthwhile to pay a point to avoid that hassle. It's like No Nuisance Rolls.
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Old 05-31-2023, 01:59 PM   #65
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Wet torch

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Per RAW, Common Sense doesn't work like this, but it should. 10 SOP perks = Common Sense. Likewise, the GM should allow skill-based rolls instead of just IQ-based rolls to avoid doing something stupid.
I see Common Sense and SOP perks as fundamentally different. Common Sense is a guarantee that the GM will remind you of the likely consequences of actions before you take them. SOP means that your character always does an annoying thing well and immediately. Common Sense is very metagame, SOP exists in the game world: people know your character as the guy who always carries a basic survival and medical kit, or never sits with her back to the door or in a public room with a single exit.

The reason most adventurous people don't have a packed and up to date bugout bag is that it takes up space, some of the things in it (including the bag itself) have other uses, and swapping out things as they expire is annoying. Its not that they don't see the advantages.
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Last edited by Polydamas; 05-31-2023 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 05-31-2023, 02:20 PM   #66
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Wet torch

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
The SOP Perk exists for games where automated PC competence is not assumed.
The SOP perk is for actions that the GM might assume are not automatically performed for whatever reason. There are reasons other than incompetence that the GM might assume those things are not automatically done.
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Old 05-31-2023, 08:17 PM   #67
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Wet torch

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Originally Posted by seycyrus View Post
How many GMs take their player's to task when they swim or ford across a small river, (let alone dive underwater) with wet bowstrings?
I had a character who had a list of "Why I love slings." and "works when wet" was one of them. :)

In that "typical dungeon crawling game" you carry torches because they are a handy way of throwing fire at something flammable or you use a torch as a melee weapon against things that are fire vulnerable. Note that Gurps has some rather venerable rules for using torches as weapons.
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Old 05-31-2023, 08:32 PM   #68
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Wet torch

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I had a character who had a list of "Why I love slings." and "works when wet" was one of them. :)
That's a thesis I'd want evidence for. Most low tech cord isn't fond of being wet, and at a minimum its balance is going to be off.
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Old 05-31-2023, 08:58 PM   #69
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Wet torch

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That's a thesis I'd want evidence for. ff.
I would want evidence for the contrary. Slings are mechanical advantage/leverage devices rather than tension. That's why they do Swing damage.
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Old 05-31-2023, 09:17 PM   #70
Anthony
 
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Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Wet torch

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I would want evidence for the contrary. Slings are mechanical advantage/leverage devices rather than tension. That's why they do Swing damage.
Slings are made of cord that (a) changes weight when wet, and (b) changes elasticity when wet. This will definitely cause its behavior to change. At best that's a loss of accuracy, at worst that could make it nonfunctional.
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