Natural Recovery as Long Tasks?

Plane · 12-28-2020, 11:42 AM

B328 mentions that to be able to do the HT roll to recover HP you need "rest and decent food" with modifiers to that HT roll based on "conditions".

This raises the question of "how much rest" and "what is rest".

B346 has rules which seem like they could be interesting to apply here...

Like for example what if we considered "getting enough rest to make a HT roll to recover HP" as being a 16-hour job? (you're assumed to be resting the 8 hours of sleep already I think?)

For those with "Slow Healing" you could multiply those hours rather than the days.

This would allow "Time Spent" modifiers to penalize the HT roll as one of the conditions (less than ideal rest duration). So for example if you could only rest 8 hours (50%) you'd have to make the HT roll at -5, and if you got no rest whatsoever you'd roll at -10?

The "decent food" thing also makes me wonder: should it really be impossible to heal on a day you haven't eaten? There's usually a delay between actually eating a meal and incorporating the proteins/fats in the food as actual structures in your body, after all...

I was thinking instead you just apply a token FP cost to Natural Recovery which is easy to get back. B160 (Very Unfit) has double the FP recovery time (1 per 20m instead of 1 per 10m) so maybe something like 1 FP per hour like P159 uses for Abilities and Exertion (same as Hiking) ?

This is also an approach we might take with stuff like Regeneration?

This would help to explain the importance of food since meals can give bonus FP recovery. Though I think there should be a delay between eating (digestion actually CONSUMES energy, initially) and getting the FP reward. Like an Internal Leech (Aura, Exposure Time) w/ Temporary Disadvantage: Dependency (FP per interval). Energy-dense foods would heal at x3 the rate (exceeds dependency cost) while energy-negative foods (I think celery? more energy to digest than calories provided?) would not?

B426 assigns at least 1 FP per hour of unencumbered hiking so charging 1 FP per "hours the body is working to try and heal itself" sounds kinda-reasonable...

So a "wounded hiker" would lose 2 FP per hour (or 1 FP per 30 minutes) and need to take more frequent breaks because in addition to walking using up FP their natural healing process is also consuming energy.

That should probably shut off at 0 FP though because past there FP loss results in HP loss too, which defeats the purpose. I'd just assume someone at 0 FP is unable to gain "healing hours" until their FP goes up to 1 and they can pay the fee.

Even though B427 says "walking around" isn't "resting quietly" (can't recover FP) given that "Hiking" can be faster than "1 step per second" it could perhaps be less fatiguing (or even restful?) if someone is moving at sub-Hiking speeds?

B351 reduces Basic Move for both injury (HP loss) and exhaustion (FP loss) and encumbrance (weight carried) but assuming none of those to subtract it's Move x 10 Miles per day. You can boost that 20% with a successful Hiking roll but for simplicity I'll assume people fail those.

Not sure if day means 24 hours (total hours) or perhaps 16 (awake hours) or 8 (working hours) but even at the slowest (per 24, meaning you won't actually move the listed amount unless you don't require sleep) basic speed 5 x 10 = 50 miles per 24 hours, or 25 per 12.

There are 1760 yards in a mile, so that's 44000 yards per 720 minutes.

4,400 yards per 72 minutes simplifies to 2200 yards per 36 minutes or 1100 per 18 (1080 seconds) or 110 yards/108 seconds (55 per 54)

Normally you can move just 54 yards per 54 seconds when taking a step maneuver, so the effect of hiking long term seems to be +1/54 travel speed, largely negligible. The biggest difference being that "Step" in combat doesn't suffer reductions due to HP/FP/encumbrance (only Move does) which actually makes Hiking worse off than "cumulative step" approach.

Rather than "60 minutes on, 10 off" approach to fatigue, you might instead say that since it takes 70 minutes to move a "1 hour hiking distance" and net 0 FP, that you could have a "unfatiguing hike" while moving at 6/7 the speed?

This would be different for unfit (they lose 2 FP per 60 minutes, so they would need to move at 6/8 or 3/4 speed) or Very Unfit (they also take 20m to recover 1 FP, so 40m to recover 2 FP lost to 1 hour hike: so it takes them 100minutes, so they need to move at 6/10 or 3/5 speed)

To have a "restful hike" would need to be even slower, since you are adding in extra rest intervals:

*80 minutes per 60 (6/8 or 3/4 speed) could recover 2 fp per 80 minutes: 1 per 40
*90 minutes per 60 (6/9 or 2/3) could recover 3 fp per 90 minutes: 1 per 30
*100 minutes per 60 (6/10 or 3/5) could recover 4 fp per 100 minutes: 1 per 25
*110 minutes per 60 (6/11) could recover 5 FP per 110 minutes: 1 per 22
*120 minutes per 60 (6/12 or 50% speed) could recover 6 FP per 120 minutes: 1 per 20

There's probably some way we could do a formula where you insert % of your hiking speed and it generates "interval at which 1 FP is recovered" which approaches 10 minutes as speed approaches 0. Just not sure how to code that as my algebra is limited.

This is realistic in the sense of how Fartlek training works: you sprint and then "walk off" the fatigue until you're able to sprint again: you never stop moving but still recover.

That's also sorta how "Last Gasp" deals with Action Points: you can move (Evaluate gives 1 step) and still get a HT roll to recover AP that you spent on a Move previously.

The idea is just to make this a bit more granular for amounts between 10/20/50/100% Basic move.

If this "walking recovery" approach seems too good (you not only expend no energy, but actually recover it, moving 6 ft per second?) then using the slower FP recovery rates in Last Gasp (Pyramid 44 pg 6) as "Mild Fatigue" for someone with FP 10 takes 2 hours to recover (not 10 minutes).

So doing that, you instead get "1 hour losing 1 FP to hiking, 2 hours to get it back" so "hiking at 0 energy loss" would be at 1/3 hiking speed

This roughly matches up to the Action Point balance on the per-second approach: HT 10 succeeds an AP recovery roll 1 per 2 seconds, so if you spend 1 AP on a move maneuver and 2 seconds to recover from it, the net effect is 1/3 speed for 0 energy balance.

well not exactly: Cole initially had 1 AP per 20% which on blog was changed to 1 AP per 50%, but there's that whole "if you're already moving don't pay AP to accelerate" thing which lessens the cost... even though it would be fatiguing over time to maintain a velocity... so this is a compromise in between

"hiking to recover FP" could happen by doing 1 hour hike, 4 hours recovery: traveling 1/5 speed nets you 1 FP per 5 hours.

Even though you can't use decimal FP, you could probably just tabulate it that way (0.2 fp per hour of walking 1/5 speed .. 0.5 fp per hour of complete immobility) for people who are doing a variety of changing things over a time period.

0.1 fp per 12 minutes immobility should match up with secondly HT+4 rolls for Do Nothing, except that unlike Action Points and Hit Points the recovery of FP is not actually based on making HT rolls:

instead the rate is based on what your max FP is, which SORTA makes it linked to HT since FP is derived from HT, except you can buy up FP without buying up HT:
doing so makes you recover FP faster but not recover AP or HP faster.

To allow for continuousness I thought maybe a system where surplus AP regens FP (instead of a % of max FP fixed rate) which you could use in the short-term (longterm you would just handwaive it like "no nuisance rolls")

NNR policy as of Psionics is "effective skill 15" so if +4 doesn't get you there, people could take Time Spent (longer rest periods) to get a bonus of up to +5 to the HT roll, and maybe Task Difficulty Modiifers (up to +10) to represent how it's easier to recover AP when you're doing nothing outside of combat compared to a DN inside combat (you're just more relaxed)

Even someone with HT 1 could then get +14 bringing them up to the HT 15 required to waive a success roll (PP8:bike)

You could apply that not just to a roll to regain AP, but a 2nd HT roll done to try and convert AP back into FP. Like "spend 50% of max AP on attempt to get 1 FP back: only works if HT roll succeeds, AP is spent regardless of success", and this is only spent from a "surplus AP" pool which is overstocked only when you recover excess AP beyond your max AP.

To make it slow we should maybe just always assume the body automatically uses "Time Spent x30" to get up to +5 on this roll to get it up to skill 15, it only uses lesser time periods if high HT or high TDM get it to 15 with less time.

The idea being that we skip on the HT roll to convert AP>FP wherever possible, only doing so in situations where effective HT 15 is not possible even with maxed-out time. In that situation the body just always inherently takes the most time possible to get a HT bonus, so that we don't need to roll so often.

You need at least a +3 TDM to avoid rolling (very favorable: mildly risky) so I dunno maybe you could link the TDM bonus to how much you're exerting yourself? +10 for 0% ST, +5 for 50% ST, +3 for 30% ST, +0 for 100% ST, penalties for going beyond your ST via Extra Effort?

(as effective ST is reduced for low FP or encumbrance/grappling this would be increasingly hard)

For those with that quirk which allows +6 for x60 time we could either ignore that, or make that an extended mandate for those with low HT / low TDM. This seems like the ideal since then you're just rolling once per minute, and it allows a bigger realm of "no roll" situations.

Plane · 12-28-2020, 01:53 PM

If this is all too easy, we could do equipment modifiers: -5 for relaxing (convert AP to FP) without assistance (lying on a hard floor) -2 if you have a soft floor (improvised bed), -0 for bed, +1 for waterbed/foam (good quality) +2 for massage pad (fine quality)

Assuming that -0 is for lying down (ideal rest posture) you could do penalties for more strenuous postures: -1 for sitting, -2 for kneeling, -3 for crawling, -4 for standing?

Crit fails on AP>FP rolls could expend 1 base AP in addition to the 50% accrued surplus AP

crit fails on basic AP recovery rolls could do a -1 on the next second's roll (non-cumulative) to make it interesting

AlexanderHowl · 12-28-2020, 02:01 PM

Healing assumes 1 day per HT roll with 24 hours of rest (take Regeneration if you want to heal without rest). If we assume that normal rest is required for even the remotest chance of healing, it would probably be realistic to give a penalty of -1 to the HT roll for every 1.6 hours spent resting during a day. For example, if someone spent 8 hours at work and 1.6 hours outside of resting, they would suffer -6 to their HT rolls. FP recovery does not require HT rolls, so Time Modifiers would be meaningless, as you recover FP as long as you rest, and is unrelated to healing (though reducing fitness by one level while recovering from non-critical injuries and by two levels while recovering from critical injuries, minimum Very Unfit, would probably be realistic).

Plane · 12-28-2020, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Healing assumes 1 day per HT roll with 24 hours of rest (take Regeneration if you want to heal without rest).

If we assume that normal rest is required for even the remotest chance of healing, it would probably be realistic to give a penalty of -1 to the HT roll for every 1.6 hours spent resting during a day.

spent NOT resting, that is?

1h36m intervals i think that would be, probably rounding up to the nearest.

For example, if someone spent 8 hours at work and 1.6 hours outside of resting, they would suffer -6 to their HT rolls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

FP recovery does not require HT rolls, so Time Modifiers would be meaningless, as you recover FP as long as you rest, and is unrelated to healing (though reducing fitness by one level while recovering from non-critical injuries and by two levels while recovering from critical injuries, minimum Very Unfit, would probably be realistic).

I guess if we wanted HT-based FP recovery you could take...
Very Unfit [-15]
Not Very Unfit (requires HT roll -10%) [14]

that'd work out to be a quirk, though you'd rarely spend the FP needed to reroll once you failed the HT roll (defeats the purpose) so my design here is sorta pointless...

I guess you could maybe take a -5% for normal FP being unable to fuel it, and pay the FP cost via an Energy Reserve though.

AlexanderHowl · 12-28-2020, 03:49 PM

The anti-disadvantage builds always seem to only produce bad options at every turn, as they mostly seem to make quirks that are much worse than -1 CP would indicate. A better deal would be Very Unfit (Mitigator, Constant, Resting, -60%) [-6], which would mean that the character suffers Very Unfit only when they are not resting.

Plane · 12-29-2020, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The anti-disadvantage builds always seem to only produce bad options at every turn, as they mostly seem to make quirks that are much worse than -1 CP would indicate. A better deal would be Very Unfit (Mitigator, Constant, Resting, -60%) [-6], which would mean that the character suffers Very Unfit only when they are not resting.

is there a list of mitigators somewhere for building that though? I mainly resort to anti-disads due to a lack of mitigators list

12-28-2020, 11:42 AM	#1
Plane Join Date: Aug 2018	Natural Recovery as Long Tasks? B328 mentions that to be able to do the HT roll to recover HP you need "rest and decent food" with modifiers to that HT roll based on "conditions". This raises the question of "how much rest" and "what is rest". B346 has rules which seem like they could be interesting to apply here... Like for example what if we considered "getting enough rest to make a HT roll to recover HP" as being a 16-hour job? (you're assumed to be resting the 8 hours of sleep already I think?) For those with "Slow Healing" you could multiply those hours rather than the days. This would allow "Time Spent" modifiers to penalize the HT roll as one of the conditions (less than ideal rest duration). So for example if you could only rest 8 hours (50%) you'd have to make the HT roll at -5, and if you got no rest whatsoever you'd roll at -10? The "decent food" thing also makes me wonder: should it really be impossible to heal on a day you haven't eaten? There's usually a delay between actually eating a meal and incorporating the proteins/fats in the food as actual structures in your body, after all... I was thinking instead you just apply a token FP cost to Natural Recovery which is easy to get back. B160 (Very Unfit) has double the FP recovery time (1 per 20m instead of 1 per 10m) so maybe something like 1 FP per hour like P159 uses for Abilities and Exertion (same as Hiking) ? This is also an approach we might take with stuff like Regeneration? This would help to explain the importance of food since meals can give bonus FP recovery. Though I think there should be a delay between eating (digestion actually CONSUMES energy, initially) and getting the FP reward. Like an Internal Leech (Aura, Exposure Time) w/ Temporary Disadvantage: Dependency (FP per interval). Energy-dense foods would heal at x3 the rate (exceeds dependency cost) while energy-negative foods (I think celery? more energy to digest than calories provided?) would not? B426 assigns at least 1 FP per hour of unencumbered hiking so charging 1 FP per "hours the body is working to try and heal itself" sounds kinda-reasonable... So a "wounded hiker" would lose 2 FP per hour (or 1 FP per 30 minutes) and need to take more frequent breaks because in addition to walking using up FP their natural healing process is also consuming energy. That should probably shut off at 0 FP though because past there FP loss results in HP loss too, which defeats the purpose. I'd just assume someone at 0 FP is unable to gain "healing hours" until their FP goes up to 1 and they can pay the fee. Even though B427 says "walking around" isn't "resting quietly" (can't recover FP) given that "Hiking" can be faster than "1 step per second" it could perhaps be less fatiguing (or even restful?) if someone is moving at sub-Hiking speeds? B351 reduces Basic Move for both injury (HP loss) and exhaustion (FP loss) and encumbrance (weight carried) but assuming none of those to subtract it's Move x 10 Miles per day. You can boost that 20% with a successful Hiking roll but for simplicity I'll assume people fail those. Not sure if day means 24 hours (total hours) or perhaps 16 (awake hours) or 8 (working hours) but even at the slowest (per 24, meaning you won't actually move the listed amount unless you don't require sleep) basic speed 5 x 10 = 50 miles per 24 hours, or 25 per 12. There are 1760 yards in a mile, so that's 44000 yards per 720 minutes. 4,400 yards per 72 minutes simplifies to 2200 yards per 36 minutes or 1100 per 18 (1080 seconds) or 110 yards/108 seconds (55 per 54) Normally you can move just 54 yards per 54 seconds when taking a step maneuver, so the effect of hiking long term seems to be +1/54 travel speed, largely negligible. The biggest difference being that "Step" in combat doesn't suffer reductions due to HP/FP/encumbrance (only Move does) which actually makes Hiking worse off than "cumulative step" approach. Rather than "60 minutes on, 10 off" approach to fatigue, you might instead say that since it takes 70 minutes to move a "1 hour hiking distance" and net 0 FP, that you could have a "unfatiguing hike" while moving at 6/7 the speed? This would be different for unfit (they lose 2 FP per 60 minutes, so they would need to move at 6/8 or 3/4 speed) or Very Unfit (they also take 20m to recover 1 FP, so 40m to recover 2 FP lost to 1 hour hike: so it takes them 100minutes, so they need to move at 6/10 or 3/5 speed) To have a "restful hike" would need to be even slower, since you are adding in extra rest intervals: 80 minutes per 60 (6/8 or 3/4 speed) could recover 2 fp per 80 minutes: 1 per 40 90 minutes per 60 (6/9 or 2/3) could recover 3 fp per 90 minutes: 1 per 30 100 minutes per 60 (6/10 or 3/5) could recover 4 fp per 100 minutes: 1 per 25 110 minutes per 60 (6/11) could recover 5 FP per 110 minutes: 1 per 22 *120 minutes per 60 (6/12 or 50% speed) could recover 6 FP per 120 minutes: 1 per 20 There's probably some way we could do a formula where you insert % of your hiking speed and it generates "interval at which 1 FP is recovered" which approaches 10 minutes as speed approaches 0. Just not sure how to code that as my algebra is limited. This is realistic in the sense of how Fartlek training works: you sprint and then "walk off" the fatigue until you're able to sprint again: you never stop moving but still recover. That's also sorta how "Last Gasp" deals with Action Points: you can move (Evaluate gives 1 step) and still get a HT roll to recover AP that you spent on a Move previously. The idea is just to make this a bit more granular for amounts between 10/20/50/100% Basic move. If this "walking recovery" approach seems too good (you not only expend no energy, but actually recover it, moving 6 ft per second?) then using the slower FP recovery rates in Last Gasp (Pyramid 44 pg 6) as "Mild Fatigue" for someone with FP 10 takes 2 hours to recover (not 10 minutes). So doing that, you instead get "1 hour losing 1 FP to hiking, 2 hours to get it back" so "hiking at 0 energy loss" would be at 1/3 hiking speed This roughly matches up to the Action Point balance on the per-second approach: HT 10 succeeds an AP recovery roll 1 per 2 seconds, so if you spend 1 AP on a move maneuver and 2 seconds to recover from it, the net effect is 1/3 speed for 0 energy balance. well not exactly: Cole initially had 1 AP per 20% which on blog was changed to 1 AP per 50%, but there's that whole "if you're already moving don't pay AP to accelerate" thing which lessens the cost... even though it would be fatiguing over time to maintain a velocity... so this is a compromise in between "hiking to recover FP" could happen by doing 1 hour hike, 4 hours recovery: traveling 1/5 speed nets you 1 FP per 5 hours. Even though you can't use decimal FP, you could probably just tabulate it that way (0.2 fp per hour of walking 1/5 speed .. 0.5 fp per hour of complete immobility) for people who are doing a variety of changing things over a time period. 0.1 fp per 12 minutes immobility should match up with secondly HT+4 rolls for Do Nothing, except that unlike Action Points and Hit Points the recovery of FP is not actually based on making HT rolls: instead the rate is based on what your max FP is, which SORTA makes it linked to HT since FP is derived from HT, except you can buy up FP without buying up HT: doing so makes you recover FP faster but not recover AP or HP faster. To allow for continuousness I thought maybe a system where surplus AP regens FP (instead of a % of max FP fixed rate) which you could use in the short-term (longterm you would just handwaive it like "no nuisance rolls") NNR policy as of Psionics is "effective skill 15" so if +4 doesn't get you there, people could take Time Spent (longer rest periods) to get a bonus of up to +5 to the HT roll, and maybe Task Difficulty Modiifers (up to +10) to represent how it's easier to recover AP when you're doing nothing outside of combat compared to a DN inside combat (you're just more relaxed) Even someone with HT 1 could then get +14 bringing them up to the HT 15 required to waive a success roll (PP8:bike) You could apply that not just to a roll to regain AP, but a 2nd HT roll done to try and convert AP back into FP. Like "spend 50% of max AP on attempt to get 1 FP back: only works if HT roll succeeds, AP is spent regardless of success", and this is only spent from a "surplus AP" pool which is overstocked only when you recover excess AP beyond your max AP. To make it slow we should maybe just always assume the body automatically uses "Time Spent x30" to get up to +5 on this roll to get it up to skill 15, it only uses lesser time periods if high HT or high TDM get it to 15 with less time. The idea being that we skip on the HT roll to convert AP>FP wherever possible, only doing so in situations where effective HT 15 is not possible even with maxed-out time. In that situation the body just always inherently takes the most time possible to get a HT bonus, so that we don't need to roll so often. You need at least a +3 TDM to avoid rolling (very favorable: mildly risky) so I dunno maybe you could link the TDM bonus to how much you're exerting yourself? +10 for 0% ST, +5 for 50% ST, +3 for 30% ST, +0 for 100% ST, penalties for going beyond your ST via Extra Effort? (as effective ST is reduced for low FP or encumbrance/grappling this would be increasingly hard) For those with that quirk which allows +6 for x60 time we could either ignore that, or make that an extended mandate for those with low HT / low TDM. This seems like the ideal since then you're just rolling once per minute, and it allows a bigger realm of "no roll" situations.

12-28-2020, 01:53 PM	#2
Plane Join Date: Aug 2018	Re: Natural Recovery as Long Tasks? If this is all too easy, we could do equipment modifiers: -5 for relaxing (convert AP to FP) without assistance (lying on a hard floor) -2 if you have a soft floor (improvised bed), -0 for bed, +1 for waterbed/foam (good quality) +2 for massage pad (fine quality) Assuming that -0 is for lying down (ideal rest posture) you could do penalties for more strenuous postures: -1 for sitting, -2 for kneeling, -3 for crawling, -4 for standing? Crit fails on AP>FP rolls could expend 1 base AP in addition to the 50% accrued surplus AP crit fails on basic AP recovery rolls could do a -1 on the next second's roll (non-cumulative) to make it interesting

12-28-2020, 02:01 PM	#3
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Natural Recovery as Long Tasks? Healing assumes 1 day per HT roll with 24 hours of rest (take Regeneration if you want to heal without rest). If we assume that normal rest is required for even the remotest chance of healing, it would probably be realistic to give a penalty of -1 to the HT roll for every 1.6 hours spent resting during a day. For example, if someone spent 8 hours at work and 1.6 hours outside of resting, they would suffer -6 to their HT rolls. FP recovery does not require HT rolls, so Time Modifiers would be meaningless, as you recover FP as long as you rest, and is unrelated to healing (though reducing fitness by one level while recovering from non-critical injuries and by two levels while recovering from critical injuries, minimum Very Unfit, would probably be realistic). Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 12-28-2020 at 02:05 PM.

12-28-2020, 03:49 PM	#5
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Natural Recovery as Long Tasks? The anti-disadvantage builds always seem to only produce bad options at every turn, as they mostly seem to make quirks that are much worse than -1 CP would indicate. A better deal would be Very Unfit (Mitigator, Constant, Resting, -60%) [-6], which would mean that the character suffers Very Unfit only when they are not resting.