Air turning radius

[FeiLin]

I'm creating a campaign with some air combat between gryphon riders and dragon riders, and it seems to me the turning radius rules (B394-395) are a bit off, at least in the air. I wanna have smaller, more agile gryphons in packs facing of against one or two dragons for dramatic effect, but as far as I understand, they both end up with turning radius 1 for most velocities.

A stock gryphon (B460-461) has SM+1 (2 hexes), Speed 6, Move 6 (Ground), Move 12 (Air), Enhanced Move 1 (Air Speed 24), has BL 58 (if my calculations from ST 17 are correct), and weighs 600 lbs.

The dragon I have is an adaptation of the dragon template from the Basic Set (and not finished), currently with SM+2 (5-7 hexes in a line for slender body, probably), Speed 7.25, Move 6 (Ground), Move 12 (Air), Enhanced Move 1/2 (Air Speed 18), has BL 135 (ST 26), and weighs maybe 2 times the gryphon.

So, normally, their speed is 12, and can go up to 18/24, respectively, in a straight line (as per Enhanced Move). There's two ways to calculate turning radius: cinematic and realistic.

Cinematic gives current velocity (CV) / BM, rounded down (example given as 13/5 = 2.6 ≈ 2). Now, both my flyers have air BM 12. But that means that only when the gryphon is at it's very peak speed (24/12 = 2) will any of them have more than 1 in turning radius!

Realistic gives CV^2 / 10, which with the example of 13 gives 13^2 / 10 = 16.9 ≈ 16. Unless speed and turning radius requirements carry over across 1-second turns, that's rather useless. Also, it doesn't take the flyer into consideration. The flyer could be taken into consideration through SM, BM, Flight skill, or a combination.

Moreover, if I'm not mistaken, all these rules seem to be valid only when moving at speeds above BM (12+, here) and refer to 60˚ turns (if I interpret it correctly, turning 120˚ "only" takes a roll, with a penalty, even for a large dragon!).

Have I misunderstood something here? I sure hope I have! Otherwise I'm looking for house rules that gives the gryphon a turning radius of 2-6, the dragon a turning radius of 4-8, and the ability to try daring Riding rolls or equivalent to shorten it, for intense high-paced aerial combat between both mounts and riders, and a volatile risk-reward ratio (i.e. succeed with your riding roll to turn and blast the enemy with your fire or fail (critically) and fall to the ground).

If possible, it would be convenient awesome(!) to have a map that's not more than 100 hexes across that could still accommodate most situations of combat between gryphons and dragons.

Are there any good material (official publications as fan-made) out there for my purpose?

[FeiLin]

At least that seems a bit unbalanced/weird/off (although, I have no idea what would be considered reasonable or normal as turning radius).

[Refplace]

Cinematic (B394) at CV/BM is pretty easy to use, Realistic at (CV*CV)/10 (B395) is as it says more math heavy.
So BM 12 would be 1 or 16 which means cinematic could turn 1 hex facing for each yard moved with cinematic rules or 1 hex facing for each 16 yards moved with the more realistic rules.
The maneuverability advantage goes to the slower flyer.
Making tighter turns the advantage goes towards the more dexterous flyer as it will have a better Control (Aerobatics) roll.
You could try adding Reliable to Flight to simulate a more maneuverable flyer.

You might want to take a look a Pyramid 3/14 and 3/111 for some relevant martial styles.

[FeiLin]

After contemplating a bit, I've come up with the following clarifications/modifications:

• Moving "more or less straight" is required for high-speed/sprint. This is (by the basic set) elsewhere defined as moving only into the front 3 hexes but never changing facing. This should also incur a roll against average of Flight and Ride, rounded down, with -1 per hex that was not the one straight ahead (even if later compensated).
  • It could also be limited to being within 30˚, or both. Also, if you move into a right/left hex during your move, you cannot move into a left/right hex for that move; straight ahead is of course always allowed. This is because otherwise you can basically move as though you turned even though you haven't.

• If last turn was at high speed and the speed decelerated into is less than BM, then current turn has to move the number of hexes or up to BM (but not less). This is to compromise between high speed and normal move (I didn't find anything explicit on this for flying).

• The minimum turning radius is always 1 +SM. The roll for pushing the envelope to make a tighter/earlier turn instead halves the turning radius for 1 turn (not "turn" as in "round", that is). It makes turn more difficult without changing too much and making it too counterintuitive, imo.

• I also do not know if it is implicitly the case, but any flyer can use the rules for for the Gliding limitation, should it be of importance. It wouldn't count as resting, but for a flyer that has the FP limitation it doesn't cost anything, and maybe encumbrance is reduced by 1.
  
• And, finally, vertical move UP costs twice per "hex". Just to simulate climbing against gravity is quite arduous.

I have not play-tested this, so any comments are highly appreciated.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Realistic at (CV*CV)/10 (B395) is as it says more math heavy.

Sure, but all it takes is a table, and that's that. Problem I see is how to carry over movement needed to turn (at BM 11+ turning radius is 12++). Just keeping an extra D20 per flyer for that? I guess another one might be needed to keep track of relative altitude, too...

Originally Posted by Refplace

You could try adding Reliable to Flight to simulate a more maneuverable flyer.

Do you mean from Teleportation? Enhanced Move has Handling Bonus/Penalty for DX or operating, so I guess extending that to Flight and adding Riding would make sense.