Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-27-2018, 12:24 PM   #31
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I had assumed that if damage from a Power Parry against an incoming thrown/shot object was enough to cause knockback that the yards deviation would be applied toward the direction the attack came from, as that's usually how Innate Attack works: attack originates from direction of user and propels target directly away from user.

If you're talking about deflecting it to the left or right, that seems like it could possibly force an attack to miss you without completely nullifying its force, but that could cause it to hit an ally standing on your left or right.

Most bullets probably have 3 or less HP meaning 1 damage would be enough to cause 1 yard of knockback, which would make it incredibly easy to deflect attacks to your left or right using Power Parry even if you had no chance at all of nullifying the damage completely by opposing it directly.

Parrying bullets shouldn't be that easy so perhaps the penalties for high-speed projectiles from "Parry Missile Weapons" should be borrowed for use with Power Parry?
The direction the aura pushes things is probably part of what should be definined when the ability is created, still even an innate attack which "originates from direction of user and propels target directly away from user" would push the projectile to the side unless the projectile was aimed at the center point of the user
Andreas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 01:19 PM   #32
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
The direction the aura pushes things is probably part of what should be definined when the ability is created,
Powers has an example of a "tornado" power which converts knock "back" to knock "up" without any cost difference, if you wanted to do something like a "knock left" or "knock right" you'd have to clarify whether you mean the target's left/right or the user's left/right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
still even an innate attack which "originates from direction of user and propels target directly away from user" would push the projectile to the side unless the projectile was aimed at the center point of the user
Pushing directly away from the user could only intercept something incoming if it pushed directly back in the direction the attack originated from, so it would either decelerate the attack, stop the attack in place, or reverse it back toward its origin. To veer the angle would mean the origin of the attack could not be the attacker unless he could attack in curved lines instead of straight.

Veering would be an issue if it would be possible to do Sacrificial Parries with Power Parries and were defending an ally, as long as you couldn't draw a single line through yourself, your ally and their attacker, because then knocking an enemy's attack directly away from you would not be knocking it back directly toward the attacker or directly away from your ally.

Sacrificial Parry needs to be specialized with a combat skill, the GM would have to allow you to buy that perk for your Innate Attack skill to do it.
Emanations don't use the Innate Attack skill though, P168 says to substitute the Power Block formula for Power Parries using Emanation abilities, so I don't know if Sacrificial Parries would be an option for Emanations.

Being able to hit from a direction other than yourself sounds close to B107's "Overhead" which is actually "can alter its angle to strike from a different side of the target – usually the top". P104 implies this also includes "attacks that swoop around the target and strike from behind". I don't know if that means you'd have to buy it twice for both options (top/rear) or even more if you wanted left/right or if 1 purchase of Overhead allows you to freely attack targets from any angle instead of just from your direction.

P137's "knockback is vertical" precedent sounds like changing the direction of your default knockback (instead of back) is a free feature, but getting alternate options to choose between probably would require using Overhead.

Last edited by Plane; 11-27-2018 at 01:22 PM.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 01:35 PM   #33
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Pushing directly away from the user could only intercept something incoming if it pushed directly back in the direction the attack originated from, so it would either decelerate the attack, stop the attack in place, or reverse it back toward its origin. To veer the angle would mean the origin of the attack could not be the attacker unless he could attack in curved lines instead of straight.
That is not the case.

Consider for example an attack hitting someone who stands beside the aura user (but still within the area of effect). Unless the attack is pointed towards the aura user as well, then "directly away from user" would push the projectile in a different direction than the one from which it came.
Andreas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 01:56 PM   #34
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
If someone had Crushing Attack 100 (Aura+80% Melee -30%) and someone with a sword did "Rapid Strike, stab+stab", I don't think damage would happen quickly enough to stop the 1st half of the Rapid Strike (the sword is already beginning to damage you as you begin to damage it), but I'm not sure about the 2nd half. It might be that the aura is triggered and destroys the sword making it unable to continue stabbing again, and the attacker would have to choose something else to do as the 2nd half of the rapid strike?
There's nothing in the Innate Attack advantage or Aura enhancement to interrupt a maneuver. If it did work that way you could potentially disable your opponent mid attack (or at least inflict penalties). It seems like you should be buying more enhancements if you want it to interrupt actions or proactively work before attacks.

Quote:
If you had Crushing Attack 100 (Aura +80%, Emanation -20%, Area Effect 1 yard +25%) you can begin to damage the sword before it begins to damage you, so I understand thinking this could completely nullify an attack (independent of Power Parry) if it was enough to completely destroy the weapon.
Sure - I said that before. It's a matter of timing. If you assess damage at the end of their action (move and attack), they might be able to swing before the area affect is assessed or before their weapon takes enough damage to be destroyed.

Quote:
I still like the idea of subtracting using power parry (perhaps for free, Aura attacks don't cost you a maneuver so why not Aura Power Parry not cost an active defense?)
Because that's not related to what Aura does? Power Parry is a 4 color game mechanic, not real or any worldly physics. It's realistic like Power Block which lets you double your effective DR.

Quote:
Non-injuring attacks won't destroy the bullet, so it's a non-consideration. If your Power Parry doesn't subtract enough damage to get it to 0, it means yours wasn't a powerful enough intervention to completely mitigate it.
I'd say that a knock-back only Power Parry should reduce bullet velocity and therefore damage even if it doesn't completely stop or deflect the bullet.
naloth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 02:00 PM   #35
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
You do if you want advantages which represent the concept accurately. If you just want any game mechanical effect, then you can of course just randomly pick any advantage in the basic set.
I never suggested picking random abilities. My comment was to pick the appropriate ability for the game mechanic you're looking to acquire, rather than picking an ability that does something else entirely and trying to justify getting another advantage for free.
naloth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 02:10 PM   #36
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
There's nothing in the Innate Attack advantage or Aura enhancement to interrupt a maneuver. If it did work that way you could potentially disable your opponent mid attack (or at least inflict penalties). It seems like you should be buying more enhancements if you want it to interrupt actions or proactively work before attacks.
It is pretty clear from the description of aura that weapons are affected when striking the target. It is not hard to argue that the damage from the strike should come first, but not allowing it to effect the second strike of a rapid strike does not seem like a reasonable interpretation of the aura description in Characters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I never suggested picking random abilities. My comment was to pick the appropriate ability for the game mechanic you're looking to acquire, rather than picking an ability that does something else entirely and trying to justify getting another advantage for free.
Aura affecting weapons which strike you is hardly something else entirely. It is even explicitly mentioned in the rules! While it is very doubtful that it would offer defense against a projectile (except possibly with area of effect), there is no other advantage which would clearly give the appropriate effect either.
Andreas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 03:26 PM   #37
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
It is pretty clear from the description of aura that weapons are affected when striking the target. It is not hard to argue that the damage from the strike should come first, but not allowing it to effect the second strike of a rapid strike does not seem like a reasonable interpretation of the aura description in Characters.
From a real life perspective, sure it's two different strikes sequentially. From a game mechanics perspective, they are taking one maneuver that you normally wouldn't get to interrupt unless you are doing a Wait action of some kind.

Of course, in a real life perspective someone punching the human torch would have less contact than someone grabbing him but for game purposes Mr rapid strike can end up getting damaged twice per second rather than Mr grapple that only takes it once per second.


Quote:
Aura affecting weapons which strike you is hardly something else entirely. It is even explicitly mentioned in the rules! While it is very doubtful that it would offer defense against a projectile (except possibly with area of effect), there is no other advantage which would clearly give the appropriate effect either.
Sure, it damages weapons as/after they attack. It doesn't say anything about reducing damage they inflict, though.
naloth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 09:43 PM   #38
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
That is not the case.

Consider for example an attack hitting someone who stands beside the aura user (but still within the area of effect). Unless the attack is pointed towards the aura user as well, then "directly away from user" would push the projectile in a different direction than the one from which it came.
You're right, I was only thinking of attacks directed at the aura user, not at elsewhere within an AE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
From a real life perspective, sure it's two different strikes sequentially. From a game mechanics perspective, they are taking one maneuver that you normally wouldn't get to interrupt unless you are doing a Wait action of some kind.
You normally can't attack after your turn ends and before your next turn without a Wait, whether or not it's in the middle of an opponent's turn, so the question is whether or not Auras inflict damage immediately or not.

Hitting an Aura seems a lot like "Hurting Yourself" from punching 3+ non-flexible DR, that you would apply the damage immediately after resolving that punch. This damage, even if it could cripple your hand, would only affect followup punches with that hand though, not the first punch.

Power Parry could change that though, since that can mitigate incoming attacks.

I think Spines (B88) would also be immediate in the case of "Those who grapple or slam you are hit immediately and automatically" except it applies to any touch, not just grapple or slam.

Aside from being targeted yourself, another instance where you could interrupt an attacker's turn to damage them with Aura would be doing a Sacrificial Parry for an ally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Of course, in a real life perspective someone punching the human torch would have less contact than someone grabbing him but for game purposes Mr rapid strike can end up getting damaged twice per second rather than Mr grapple that only takes it once per second.
You're probably going to want "Requires Grapple" or "Half Damage Without Grapple" from Powers - The Weird to deal with that issue. Since grapples are mutual, having an enemy hold on to you a full second would also trigger the aura.

If there's no Aura to give you free attacks then Requires Grapple probably requires you to make attack maneuvers on following seconds to apply the damage, but only allowed if a grapple's been maintained at least 1 second.

"Requires Recharge" could also cover the problem by shutting down the attack after each flash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Sure, it damages weapons as/after they attack. It doesn't say anything about reducing damage they inflict, though.
Some weapons can end up doing less damage if they are damaged though, like if a spear head is vaporized it attacks like a wooden staff. If merely entering an area is already inflicting damage, it may be enough to cripple the weapon before it even crosses from the outer radius to targets in the middle.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2018, 10:26 PM   #39
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
From a real life perspective, sure it's two different strikes sequentially. From a game mechanics perspective, they are taking one maneuver that you normally wouldn't get to interrupt unless you are doing a Wait action of some kind.
Rapid strike is a game manuver which allows you to strike twice with one manuever. You don't normally get to interupt a ten maneuver sequence of attacks without taking action of some sort either. The rules for aura mentions neither of those. Nor are there any rules which I'm aware of which says that passive powers can't interupt maneuvers.

Passive powers not being able to interupt maneuvers would mean that you can walk through area of effect force fields etc. It is neither stated in the rules and it seems to lead to some unreasonable effects.

Quote:
Sure, it damages weapons as/after they attack. It doesn't say anything about reducing damage they inflict, though.
It is not clear that it is after the entire attack is resolved for area effect auras. Powers don't need to mention every single thing possible (especially not if it requires enhancements for the power). Otherwise you wouldn't be able to drop things on foes from high above with Flight without buying Innate Attack for it.

There is an important difference between trying to justify getting additional powers for free based on the concept you have for your ability (not allowed), and just making indirect use of the game mechanics which your Advantages give you access to (allowed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
You're right, I was only thinking of attacks directed at the aura user, not at elsewhere within an AE.
For the same reasons, it might also apply against attacks on the aura user. For example, if the aura pushes attacks away from the user's center of mass, then a projectile not aimed at center of mass could get diverted.

Last edited by Andreas; 11-27-2018 at 10:29 PM.
Andreas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 11:59 AM   #40
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
For the same reasons, it might also apply against attacks on the aura user. For example, if the aura pushes attacks away from the user's center of mass, then a projectile not aimed at center of mass could get diverted.
Innate Attack normally needs to specify a point of origin on the body like eyes/ mouth/hand for beam/breath/blast, this might still be in effect for Emanations? Think of banshees wailing or bards singing. To be able to project from other areas (like center of mass) I think was some enhancement.

If your crushing emanation came out of your mouth/jaw and someone aimed a bit down (neck) up (nose) or side (ear) I can see why you're saying it would be diverted, but any ideas for how to figure out how much damage at what angle is needed to divert to different hexes? If there were ever any advanced rules made for DR w/ Reflection, that could help.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
aura of power, persistent

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.