Stagnation in Road Combat Designs .

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost

with 6E in the works there may be a new "avenue" of beginner car design, but I think with classic CW, as with all things, there's only so many effective combinations of weapons and armor you can come up with. Though I've not noticed it myself.

[nod] Sad to say, but: A lot of _CW_'s strategies came about due to rules changes -- for ex.: When the advanced speed modifiers came out, where the relative facings of the cars became far more relevant, suddenly the "circle strafer" design school (L- or R-mounted weapons; heavy armor on one side; circling the arena with the weak side facing the outer wall) became pre-eminent. Note the difference in designs between _VG2_ and _VG3_.

Same for "championship designs" vs. "normal duel" designs -- when the Duelling Championship became checkpoint- and target-oriented, the designs changed from the ones depicted in _Combat Showcase_ to "dropped-weapon special with token DF gun for targets" (Vehicular Shotgun, anyone?). The time-limited nature of Championship events helped lead to the emphasis on checkpoints and targets over actually killing the opposition, which influenced the nature of the designs used.

[Kax]

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost

I think the one thing the classic rules got right is that electric battery fuel cell cars tend to catch fire more often than their gasoline counterparts. Here locally in the Bay Area some guy died in last few days on one of the major arteries in a Tesla that caught fire. I'm not sure if it was the impact of the initial crash or the fire that got him, but the report stated that electric cars tended to catch fire and stay combustible. Not always, but there's your "6" result on the crash table.

That assumes that Li-ion batteries are what we keep with, which is unlikely. Al-ion batteries, glass batteries, sodium-ion batteries; all are presently being worked on and are /much/ lower fire risks as well as having capacities closer to the CW ones.

If using fuel cells running H2, which IIRC is what we're using, H2 burns fast and vents fast and isn't half as dangerous as lithium.

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by juris

Burning people alive - it's called terrorizing the remaining vehicles into surrendering.

Burn the escorts, salvage the cargo (vehicles). Have expendable gang members with a PFE by the side of the road in a red cross jumpsuit to put out fires on vehicles who surrender.

Hmm, that sounds like Darkwind logic ;)

A PFE equipped ped will almost certainly be no use to a vehicle that is on fire (outside of an arena scenario) even if it did surrender. In a fight once you catch fire, you have a few seconds to bail out before the interior is worthless. The car has to stop (which will probably take more time than you have as this was a road fight and you will probably be moving at 50+), the ped needs to run over to it and activate his firing action and hope he rolls a 2.

I suspect any bandits that are known to use incendiary will be at the top of the vigilante hit list (and survival means you try to stay off that list).

If you are only attacking my escorts why should my cargo vehicles surrender. The point of escorts is to protect the cargo carrier. If that means ramming whilst on-fire, goody go.

In my experience any cargo carrying vehicle should be quite capable of defending itself, a rig can carry more weaponry than any single escort. The little cars are to spring the ambush, fight a path through it and in the worst case provide an expendable prize for the bandits.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by Kax

If using fuel cells running H2, which IIRC is what we're using, H2 burns fast and vents fast and isn't half as dangerous as lithium.

That was my assumption -- the power plants used fuel cells instead of batteries; it helped explain why "recharging" was so quick.

Full explanation: The power plant contains algae bioengineered to produce hydrogen (folks were working on this back in the '80s, BTW); the hydrogen was then burned in a small turbine generator, producing electricity for the wheel motors, lasers, etc. (In essence, it was a "gas-burner", just using a different sort of gas. We joked that one could always tell a laser-armed car in combat from the tortured screaming of the alternator....) The chance for fire and explosion came from the hydrogen having to travel from the algae to the turbine; if it leaked, Boom.

[Blue Ghost]

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

[nod] Sad to say, but: A lot of _CW_'s strategies came about due to rules changes -- for ex.: When the advanced speed modifiers came out, where the relative facings of the cars became far more relevant, suddenly the "circle strafer" design school (L- or R-mounted weapons; heavy armor on one side; circling the arena with the weak side facing the outer wall) became pre-eminent. Note the difference in designs between _VG2_ and _VG3_.

Same for "championship designs" vs. "normal duel" designs -- when the Duelling Championship became checkpoint- and target-oriented, the designs changed from the ones depicted in _Combat Showcase_ to "dropped-weapon special with token DF gun for targets" (Vehicular Shotgun, anyone?). The time-limited nature of Championship events helped lead to the emphasis on checkpoints and targets over actually killing the opposition, which influenced the nature of the designs used.

That's interesting. I can only speak for my own gaming experiences, and that is the designs we used tended to be general purpose dueling vehicles. I did max out a few designs for unlimited dueling, but for road stuff it was fairly generic. I can't really comment on dropped weapons as I tend to favor lasers and MGs, and favor the "gut 'em with an Alpha Strike" school of thought when it comes to dueling. Though in retrospect a lot of that came out of my experience as an unlimited duelist. And to be fair much of that was before the facing DMs came into effect … I had put the game down in 1989 or maybe a year or two before when life got busy. Meaning that I didn't witness a lot of the trends you're mentioning, but I'm not surprised by it.

My designs were also largely influenced by my previous years as an SFB player, where keeping your forward weapons and shields facing were paramount. Our group tended to favor that kind of thinking or doctrine, even in team arena events.

I'll have to attend more tournaments to see who's designing what.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost

My designs were also largely influenced by my previous years as an SFB player, where keeping your forward weapons and shields facing were paramount. Our group tended to favor that kind of thinking or doctrine, even in team arena events.

Mine also shade towards the "fighter-pilot" design school (large F battery; get in behind the target, and chew him up -- of course, this is also why my designs have the "Checkerboard Of Doom" dropped-weapons loadout to the rear :) ).

Couple of people in NOVA tried the "circle-strafer" design; a barrage of dropped weapons along the wall put an end to that (either his tires came off, or he's have to break away and expose his weak side).

One interesting notion I've seen: Massed Grenade launchers with Impact-fuse Grenades, and as many targeting aids as possible -- one targets the ground ahead of a target; he either risks the gauntlet, or pulls a hard maneuver and crashes (or ends up in the gauntlet anyway). Haven't seen how well it plays out in "reality", tho'.

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost

I'll have to attend more tournaments to see who's designing what.

A good idea, but keep in mind: As noted earlier, the nature of the arena, and the tournament, will affect the designs used -- it doesn't really serve to bring a "brick" to an event scheduled to run 2 hours.

Which leads back to the original subject: Road combats all tend to be the same -- I think one of the ADQs describes it as "an arena three inches wide and infinitely long"; well, if the terrain is always the same, doesn't it stand to reason the same sort of design will become predominant in such events?

[Racer]

A few things we've noted from playing & these are mainly for Cars & smaller Vehicle :

Direct Fire Weapons : VMGs & RRs are very prominent now ; Low cost , accurate , good ammo choices , NON VOLATILE , good Damage Points & reloads can be found anywhere .
ACs and BCs have their usefulness , but are expensive in comparison . Turreted Twin HMGs are becoming more popular - especially if they're a Vehicles only offensive weaponry . Too many HMGs are regarded as cheesy - two for Cars & four on a single Oversized are fine in our games . ( By logical agreement we use 300lbs for HMGs loaded weight , but the updated 2d-2 Damage . Our augment for this has been done to death elsewhere on here & we won't be starting again here . )
MGs, LMGs and VSGs are restricted to light Vehicles or those not expected to enter Combat . No one has used Flechette Guns on the Road in over 15 years in our games . Might be seen on in Town Riot Control but that's about it .

Rocket Weapons tend towards single shot Heavy Rockets or SAMs on Rocket Platforms or REWPs , due to the volatility issue . The odd RL protected by Component Armour is also seen on low budget or smaller Vehicles . Almost always in conjunction with at least a SWC . Since change in rules , VFRPs are too expensive to Laser Guide & non guided are too inaccurate for regular Road Combat .
Multiple Grenade Launchers/ AGLs ( legal in our games post 2060 ) , can be very very nasty if used properly . AGLs also have advantage of large ammo supplies .
Lasers , GGs , HVMGs are an extreme rarity now ; too expensive & first two lack ammo variety .
ATGs have died a death for flexible Road designs - volatile , heavy & too inaccurate . Might be seen on the odd ambushers .
Very few Flamethrowers ever seen these days . The odd HDFT maybe seen in Oversized Vehicle or a Trailer as a surprise defensive weapon or nasty Antipersonnel Area Effect device .

Dropped Weapons : HD versions rarely seen on smaller Vehicles , but might be found mounted on a Trailer . Paint Sprayers aren't often used on open Road - much more likely to be used in Towns with tighter road networks & crowded traffic . It's too easy for attackers to hang back so paint disperses before they reach the paint cloud , or go Off Road & avoid them completely . Paint Guns & launched Paint Grenades can wreak a targeted Vehicles ability to effectively fight back & be deadly during ambushes if properly used . Flame Clouds suffer same problems as Paint Clouds , are volatile and have low ammo capacities .
Hot Smokescreens are cheap & useful 'just in case' any players are silly enough to use IR Lasers .
Oil & Ice devices are nasty persistent weapons . Few Vehicles use Snow Tires & fewer still use Tire Chains on roads . Great ammo supplies are another bonus .
Flaming Oil Jets/Oil Jets with Pyrophoric Ammo are moderately popular , but almost always protected by Component Armour & Vehicular Fire Extinguishers . Again standard FOJs can be dodged by hanging way back .

Have to leave it at that for now & hope to post more later .

[swordtart]

Grenade Launchers?

OK for anti-pedestrian use, but frankly an MML or MG with explosive rounds can hit the ground near a ped fairly reliably and are more flexible.

Are we presuming regular explosive grenades for actually damaging vehicles? That 1/2" area effect for 1/2 damage surely isn't big enough to be useful (recalling that unless you roll a 12 even a hit isn't necessarily completely on target)? Grenades haven't damaged tires within their 2" radius for several editions.

GL launched Paint on the other hand can be a laugh a minute (since you can put immediately ahead of even vehicles in front of you). I tend to see a pedestrian GL as a backup passenger weapon to save the space and weight.

Our hero's rig had a flechette gun mounted front for precisely 1 game session before they realised it was practically useless.

They then expensively retro-fitted a GL (loosing a FE into the bargain). Even with the GL, the poor front arc of a rig limited it's usefulness when doing anything other than dropping smoke.

[Blue Ghost]

Multiple LAWs linked together was always a hoot.

[Racer]

I thought barring Gyrosluggers , you couldn't link Hand Weapons ?

Having several Triple Barreled Gyroluggers stored in a Pickup's bed , loaded with 2x AP Ammo & a single Paint load can cause havoc at point blank range ! Have the Passenger(s) handling them duck down until the last second & pop up as your overtaking/being passed by the target . Hit it in multiple phases & often it will lose control & possibly crash - those Hazards mount rapidly against non Oversized Vehicles .