Does Danger Sense allow Dodge against back attacks?

[ArchonShiva]

Both DFRPG and GURPS seem somewhat light on details.

DFE47: "Seeing It Coming You get a defense roll only if you know you’re being attacked!"

but also: "Against any attack that comes from behind [...] you cannot defend at all unless you possess Peripheral Vision or can make a Blind Fighting roll, either of which lets you defend at ‑2."

DFA48: "[...] in any situation involving an ambush, impending disaster, hidden hazard, etc. Success will give you enough of a warning that you can take action."

So, does the back attack not qualify, or is is that the action you can take is not a defense, or that Danger Sense is missing from the list?

[Kale]

If the Danger Sense IQ roll is successful, the character should get a dodge roll. There may be situations where this doesn't make sense based on any power limitations added to Danger Sense, for instance hyper sensitivity derived Danger Sense might not be able to warn against a light-speed attack like a laser. But supernatural-derived Danger Sense would as precognition would warn the character as the sniper started to pull the trigger. GMs call.

[evileeyore]

If the IQ roll is successful I give them a defense -2.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

If the IQ roll is successful I give them a defense -2.

This.

Depending on circumstances, I might say something like “You sense immediate danger! What do you do?”

[evileeyore]

To further explain my reasoning...

Originally Posted by ArchonShiva

So, does the back attack not qualify, or is is that the action you can take is not a defense, or that Danger Sense is missing from the list?

I take it as "these are two things that can or cannot go together as the GM decides". I decided they go together (ie Danger Sense allows a defense, but you can't see it ala Blind Fighting*).


For instance I allow a defense against a ranged attack from out of LOS if the Danger Sense is successful.

It's Danger Sense, it doesn't get taken too often in my games and I like to encourage corner case advantages.


*Indeed, if a PC had both Blind Fighting and Danger Sense I'd allow them full defenses against attacks if both rolls are successful.








Disclaimer: I hate "And the GM makes all these rolls for the Players" rules, so in my games Danger Sense is treated more along the line of the way Exploits and Traps handles it, the Player gets a reroll for rolls to notice danger and may take the higher roll or a +2 bonus to their rolls to notice or avoid danger (defenses, DX checks, PER checks, HT Checks, etc). Yeah, if the reroll is worse I do allow them to take the +2 instead with a Perk (called Reliable Danger Sense)


Example of how things Might run in my DF games:

The PCs enter a room and I ask for PER checks.

Grog, Dwarven Barbarian (has 2 lvls of Dwarven Craftsman Talent*): "Ummm... -1, unless it's Dwarven craftsmanship then it's a +1."

Skyler, Elven Bard (has 4 lvls of The Better Things In Life Talent*) : "Skyler has his nose in his map, a -6, unless it's looty-loot he doesn't care, and even then Skyler has a -2."

Nicknak, Goblin Thief (Danger Sense): "Mmmm... reroll... Okay, Niknak has solid +2 for everything, +4 for anything dangerous," [GM note: he rolled even worse with his reroll and took the +2 with his Perk]

Jonesy, Catfolk Scout (Danger Sense): As usual, Jonesy is on point with a +3 in general and +9 for anything dangerous! [GM note: she rolled really well on her reroll]


At this point I consult my notes and see that everyone notices the well made chest in the middle of the barren room (+10) tiled room, everyone but Skyler recognizes it's Dwarven construction (+0, it's old and most markings have faded, but it's style is recognizable as old Dwarven made things are often trapped in this campaign), Jonesy and Niknak see the much subtler grooves on the walls and ceiling indicating a probable trap (-4) but only Jonesy notices that some of the tiles are more worn than others (-8 on a PER, -4 on Observation‡) adn aren't in line where people would normaly walk.



* I allow a bunch of Talents that don't exist in DFRPG as Profession or Racial powerups. These are two of those.
‡ In my games Observation can be used when taking time to "look for things" (searching, standing watch, etc), PER is used for immediate perceptions.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Danger Sense, it doesn't get taken too often in my games and I like to encourage corner case advantages.

I basically have the same experience, so I try to err on the side of generosity. A 15 point advantage should matter. If it's less useful at spotting danger than +3 Per that I am handling it wrong.

One way I house rule a bit is to ALWAYS allow a defense roll for a DS PC if defense is possible at all. This is very handy given the power of a good ambush in GURPS.

[Anthony]

I would give a defense at -2, on the logic that you can defend against a runaround attack at -2, and presumably the reason you can defend is because it really isn't a surprise.

[Harald387]

Danger Sense is intended to give warning of *unknown* dangers: the initial attack of an ambush, to allow a character to dodge a trap they didn't see, or a last ditch chance to avoid stepping into a hazard.

Against danger that you're aware of but unable to defend against (like an attack from behind from a foe you turned your back on), Danger Sense shouldn't apply; you're already aware of the danger, just unable to do anything about it.

In short it shouldn't replace Peripheral Vision and Blind Fighting; I can't imagine PV being well priced at [15] if Danger Sense is "nearly as good for attacks from behind, and does all the Danger Sense things"!

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Harald387

In short it shouldn't replace Peripheral Vision and Blind Fighting; I can't imagine PV being well priced at [15] if Danger Sense is "nearly as good for attacks from behind, and does all the Danger Sense things"!

It won't as PV expands your front into your side hexes for attacks and defense and allows a rear defense without needing an IQ roll.



Though I have considered dropping PV's price to 10 points as no one ever takes it either.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Though I have considered dropping PV's price to 10 points as no one ever takes it either.

Oh man, I take it all the time. It's fantastic!