Electrician Design-Repair-Use Triad

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

(It must be said that back in the 90s I had occasion to witness a room full of university students taking a course on basic computer use. And finding things like using menu bars and tool bars in Microsoft Word challenging in the course's lab sections. I have seen the face of Computer Operation at the IQ-4 default plus unfamiliarity.)

I have that all the time with my Mom. Despite using her computer frequently (at least twice a week) she's still baffled by simple tasks. I'm beginning to suspect she has the Quirk Incompetence (Computers Operations).

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Those are things that Computer Operations in the current late-TL8 world could include, but aren't the most basic things it would include.

Yeah, I don't know how to do most of that and I'd give myself a good solid 1 point in Comp Op. (I can error solve, know how to install things, understand how to edit 'do not touch' Windows files, etc.)

I could figure out how use all of the things Daigoro mentioned, but I suspect that's not just a 'solid 1 point' in Comp Op, but also IQ and a few other Talents/skills (like Research).

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Based on the experience I mentioned at the bottom of that paragraph, I don't agree. Also watching a laborious effort a couple years ago to teach a (fundamentally very smart) grandmother enough to be able to locate email attachments she saved.

Yes, however I wouldn't give your very intelligent Grandmother a default in Computer Operations. It's a TL different skill for her, despite being very intelligent (and likely adaptable), it's built on some fundamentally different operation frameworks than she's used to.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Example: Here's an ordinary computer loaded with all the programs that a TL8 lawyer needs to do his job. You have 4 hours to write a legal brief that's up to acceptable professional standards or else . . .

Someone with Law skill but no Computer Ops skill will fail at the task because they waste time fighting with the programs and trying to figure out how the mouse/touchpad works. Someone with Computer Ops skill but no Law skill can use the necessary hardware and programs with ease but fail at the task due to lack of legal training.

Honestly, in this example, I wouldn't penalize the Lawyer. Using a computer with it's word processor and research libraries are part and parcel with a modern lawyer's job. I'd lump that under Profession (Lawyer).

If they had Comp Op, I'd give them a Complementary Skill bonus, but not penalize them for it's absence.

Now if the computer (or the programs) have been monkeyed with to make the task harder, then Comp Op use would reveal this and possibly fix it.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Yeah, I don't know how to do most of that and I'd give myself a good solid 1 point in Comp Op. (I can error solve, know how to install things, understand how to edit 'do not touch' Windows files, etc.)

You think that's the meaning of one point in the skill of, and I repeat my quote, "the ability to use a computer: call up data, run programs, play games, etc."? That's more egregious skill normalization than expecting the average driver in Manhattan to be using Driving-6.

Well, that or you're figuring you've got an IQ 12+, which could be.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Yes, however I wouldn't give your very intelligent Grandmother a default in Computer Operations. It's a TL different skill for her, despite being very intelligent (and likely adaptable), it's built on some fundamentally different operation frameworks than she's used to.

If she didn't have a default, how was she using email at all?

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Honestly, in this example, I wouldn't penalize the Lawyer. Using a computer with it's word processor and research libraries are part and parcel with a modern lawyer's job. I'd lump that under Profession (Lawyer).

If they can't make a Computer Operations roll, how are they going to launch the software? Maybe you could give them a free One-Task Wonder perk, I suppose. Personally I'd most likely tell them to go back and fix their character sheet. Computer Operations is part and parcel of every TL/8 white-collar job, although that doesn't mean they need much of it or should need to roll it if they've got it.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You think that's the meaning of one point in the skill of, and I repeat my quote, "the ability to use a computer: call up data, run programs, play games, etc."? That's more egregious skill normalization than expecting the average driver in Manhattan to be using Driving-6.

Well, that or you're figuring you've got an IQ 12+, which could be.

Yes. And I take Extra Time and perform Research in most cases (when doing 'self IT work').

And I might have more than 1 point. It's hard to judge these things without an external scale.

If she didn't have a default, how was she using email at all?

Sometimes GURPS skills don't fit the real world well.

Also a well designed UI can cover a lot of sins.

In your grams case, she might just have a default and hefty Familiarity penalty. If she consumes enough modern media, seeing how computers are turned on, moving the mouse, and clicking on program icons is certainly culturally ingrained enough at this point.

If they can't make a Computer Operations roll, how are they going to launch the software?

I don't treat "launching and using apps/programs" as requiring Comp Op. Not like it did back in the days of DOS. See above statement about well designed UIs.

Personally I'd most likely tell them to go back and fix their character sheet. Computer Operations is part and parcel of every TL/8 white-collar job, although that doesn't mean they need much of it or should need to roll it if they've got it.

And here we disagree. I roll general machine/electronics usage into the job roll and don't worry about it. I only require Elect Op or Comp Op when going above and beyond every day usage.

Not "it's on the sheet and they don't have to roll it" but "the Character has Profession (Lawyer) so they also know how to write briefs using [CURRENT YEAR] machinery so they don't need Comp Op unless they want to be able to do more than use the database and word processor and check emails and etc".

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Honestly, in this example, I wouldn't penalize the Lawyer. Using a computer with it's word processor and research libraries are part and parcel with a modern lawyer's job. I'd lump that under Profession (Lawyer).

If they had Comp Op, I'd give them a Complementary Skill bonus, but not penalize them for it's absence.

That's an equally good solution. It all depends on how "user friendly" the standard computer programs are. Late 1980s to late 1990s tech might actually require Computer Ops skill. By ~2010, everyone's familiar with the tech (i.e., most of the population is operating at TL8) and programs have become simpler to use with more mature tech, so if you really know Computer Ops, you might get a bonus.

A key concept that hasn't been discussed so far is "ease of use"/"user friendliness".

The easiest Operations skills assume that the user interface and equipment operation is really simple and/or intuitive, with lots of overlap between different models of equipment, as in the case of Computer Operations, Driving, or Guns. That's why they're "Easy" skills.

Average difficulty Operations skills either assume that the user interface is a lot less intuitive, or that there is a whole range of equipment, often with different operating protocols, that you need to learn.

It's entirely possible, if there is no user interface and not much overlap between knowledge required to use a particular device within the class of technology the skill covsrs, that there is no Operations skill and that the Operations skill is identical to the Repair/Maintenance skill.

For example, very early TL6 automobiles, where there were few common standards for powerplants, control systems, etc. and the technology involved was experimental, would probably use Mechanic/TL rather than Driving skill. But, just 10-20 years later, once everyone had more or less standardized around cars with four wheels, internal combustion engine, steering wheel, and brake and gas pedals, Driving skill is the norm.