Electrician Design-Repair-Use Triad

[Pursuivant]

I've seen house-rules for spaceship powerplant operation (taken from GURPS Prime Directive?) which use:

Professional Skill (Powerplant Operator or Reactor Operator)

That makes a LOT of sense, especially for running a large powerplant. Frex, the guys who run steam plants which provide heat and hot water to older building complexes are called Stationary Engineers. They do the same thing that a ship's "engineer" would do, just on land rather than at sea.

In some cases, there might not BE a use skill. If a machine is cantankerous enough that you need to repair and maintain it while it's running, Mechanic or Electronics Repair are the necessary use skills.

Conversely, a "low maintenance" powerplant might not need a specific skill to operate it.

Realistically, for a solar park, you might have a field technician who comes out and cleans, repairs, and replaces the panels (Electrician/TL8 skill) and a bunch of power grid operators somewhere monitoring sensors and taking a bunch of different powerplants on or off-line as demand fluctuates. That's Professional Skill (Power Grid Operator).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

There isn't one listed in the Basic Set, but I didn't see that list as exhaustive, especially with the wording "You must specialize. Available specialties vary by game world, but might include:"

I'd say someone who works here (as a random illustrative example), has:
Electronic Ops (Power plant controls)
Electrician (Power plant and/or transmission)

...as well as skills relevant to the specific kind of power generation, such as nuclear, solar, hydro, gas or coal.

Sure. But the question is, what is the appropriate thing to call it?

I wouldn't call such a skill "Electronics Operation," because a distinction is drawn between Electronics Repair and Electrician (even though ER includes some equipment that's purely electrical). I invented the parallel name Machine Operation for running complex mechanical equipment, making it basically another name for EO (in the way that Weather Sense is another name for Meteorology), but letting it default to specialties of Mechanic. I suppose running a power plant could be called MO, since types of power plant are specializations of Mechanic; or it could be called Electric Power Plant Operation or something, since Electrician is distinguished both from ER and from Mechanic.

But really, the question there is purely one of what's a suitable NAME. I think the principle that handling the controls of an electrical plant or electrical power distribution system defaults to Electrician at a penalty, and vice versa, makes perfect sense by analogy to EO/ER and to my addition of MO/Mechanic, no matter what you call the skill.

[thrash]

Originally Posted by whswhs

A gap in the RAW is the skill of Machine Operation, usable to run lathes, pumps, printing presses, or what have you.

Isn't that just Machinist (for machines that create a product) or Mechanic (for parts of systems, like pumps)?

Edit to add: There really isn't much more to operating a mechanical system (building HVAC) than "diagnose and fix ordinary mechanical problems," which is RAW for Mechanic. If you can maintain a nuclear power plant -- Mechanic (Fission Reactor) by RAW -- what else do you need to know to operate it? It only does one thing -- produce power. From a game perspective, it either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't, Mechanic is the skill to fix it. If the problem goes beyond Mechanic, it is almost certainly a design flaw that requires Engineering to address.

Same goes for Electrician, but not for electronics. Electronics Operation is different because it focuses on the results of operating the devices: interpreting readings, adjusting for varying conditions, etc. You wouldn't need Electronic Operation for a device that does only one thing -- an emergency beacon, say -- although you would still need Electronics Repair if it fails.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by thrash

Isn't that just Machinist (for machines that create a product) or Mechanic (for parts of systems, like pumps)?

Machinist can be A "Machine Operation" skill. But Mechanic is by definition the Repair skill, not the Operation skill.

[thrash]

In game design terms, the only reason to have separate operations and repair skills is if different characters are expected to perform those tasks (or one character might have radically different facility with each of them). Seaman Jones is master of the sonar system on USS Dallas, but he probably is not the one that overhauls the guts of it in port -- or if it shorts out in a battle.

For almost all mechanical systems, however, the ideal operating condition is "doing what it was designed to do." If it does, fine; if it doesn't, it's a repair issue. The person who monitors its operation, then, is almost always the same as the person who has to fix it when it something is off.

When someone complains, "My office is too cold," there's no practical difference between fixing the zone valve because it's stuck and adjusting the heating water flow upwards to make the space warmer (even though the system was working fine). One task is "repairing," one is "operating," but the same technician, with one skill set, performs the task either way.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by thrash

Edit to add: There really isn't much more to operating a mechanical system (building HVAC) than "diagnose and fix ordinary mechanical problems," which is RAW for Mechanic. If you can maintain a nuclear power plant -- Mechanic (Fission Reactor) by RAW -- what else do you need to know to operate it? It only does one thing -- produce power. From a game perspective, it either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't, Mechanic is the skill to fix it. If the problem goes beyond Mechanic, it is almost certainly a design flaw that requires Engineering to address.

Same goes for Electrician, but not for electronics. Electronics Operation is different because it focuses on the results of operating the devices: interpreting readings, adjusting for varying conditions, etc. You wouldn't need Electronic Operation for a device that does only one thing -- an emergency beacon, say -- although you would still need Electronics Repair if it fails.

Advanced mechanical devices have much the same operational considerations as Electronic Operation. A device that can be described as 'only doing one thing' (which a lot of Electronics Operations subjects could be as well) can still have a lot of adjustable parameters about how it does that one thing, which can drastically influence effectiveness and cause or avert disaster. Fission power plants certainly can, Chernobyl achieved legendary status because of ill-advised (well, ill-commanded) reactor operation. On-board vehicle engineers have often been there not (only) to supervise maintenance and repair but because the engines were and sometimes still are complex precision technology that does better with expert handling and monitoring.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Sure. But the question is, what is the appropriate thing to call it?

I wouldn't call such a skill "Electronics Operation," because a distinction is drawn between Electronics Repair and Electrician (even though ER includes some equipment that's purely electrical).

I'm leaning toward actually calling it that, for the reason that I don't think there's a distinction. Electronics Op would sit at the base of both the Electronics triad and the Electrician triad.

Reason being this- the user interface works the same way. A user is presented with a bunch of dials, displays, knobs, switches, levers and slide controls. They must interpret what the machine is displaying and manipulate the controls to get some response, with the connection between the manipulation and the response not being conceptually intuitive. That is, the user needs some conceptual understanding of how the circuits and currents function to relate his manipulations to an intended response.

And how that works is the same whether the underlying machinery is electrical in nature or electronic.

Let me start with a degenerative example, my washing machine. Back in the day, it was a purely electrical device. Twist a timer, and it allows current to flow until the timer cuts off.

The modern washing machine has a digital time display, electronic touch buttons and fuzzy logic circuits, but my interaction with it is still on a similar level.

Obviously, neither case requires any Operation skill (beyond a default in Housekeeping), but the interface is more important to how I use it than the underlying engineering.

I'm having trouble thinking of any electrical devices that would require skill to use but that don't have an interface with the user which is significantly different to how an electronic device (of a similar TL) would interface.

Poking at Google gives a different perspective. Electric devices are defined as using electricity to provide energy, usually light, heat or motion. Electronic devices are defined as manipulating electricity to give it some level of informational meaning. An example is given of Edison, in 1883, creating a light bulb circuit that could regulate its own voltage supply.

An Operations skill would interact with the device in terms of understanding and manipulating its information handling, which, by definition, are electronic devices only. In other words, any device complicated enough to need a skill to control it must be electronic. Other electrical devices are simple in terms of electrical operation, but if they require skill it's as a tool or instrument in another field- like a power drill or electric guitar.

Even if you disagree with this rant, it might be handy to provide the definition and distinction between electrical and electronic devices that you're working with.

ETA: Oops, meant to explain how Machine Operation fits the first paradigm above. A user manipulates controls on a machine, but he still needs a conceptual understanding of how the machine operates. The difference is that instead of currents, voltages and logic circuits, it's an appreciation that it's gears, cams, levers and drive shafts working inside the machine. The user may not know the specifics, but their skill is knowing how their control of the machine supplies an intended response, but working with its physical rather than electrical attributes.....
Kind of a circular explanation, I know, but I can't see how else to express it at the moment.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Even if you disagree with this rant, it might be handy to provide the definition and distinction between electrical and electronic devices that you're working with.

An electronic device contains active circuit elements, in which one flow of electrons controls another flow of electrons. An electrical device does not; its flows of electrons are controlled mechanically, by switches, relays, rheostats, and the like.

Note, though, that though this is (as I understand it) how the distinction is made in engineering, GURPS includes certain purely electrical devices under Electronics Operation. Telegraphs, first generation telephones, and spark gap radios are not "electronic" in this sense, but come under Electronics Operation (Communications). I'm not sure if there is a strong conceptual rationale for this; it may be purely to maintain a sense of historical continuity.

[thrash]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

On-board vehicle engineers have often been there not (only) to supervise maintenance and repair but because the engines were and sometimes still are complex precision technology that does better with expert handling and monitoring.

Is there ever a case, however, where such on-board vehicle engineers are expected to hand over repairs to someone else once they detect a problem? Or is the expert handling and monitoring just one facet of "diagnose and fix ordinary mechanical problems"? The "Skills for Design, Repair, and Use" box on p. 190 says explicitly that Driving is the operator skill for vehicles.

On a steam locomotive, the engineer has Driving (Locomotive); the fireman, who operates the steam engine, has Mechanic (Steam Engine); the brakeman has Mechanic (Locomotive), because he deals with the other vehicle systems as well. There's no need for a separate Operator (Steam Engine) skill, because getting the best performance out of the engine is a maintenance issue.

I submit that a sufficiently complex mechanical system (or, more likely, a system-of-systems) already has a separate operator skill somewhere in the GURPS inventory: Driving for vehicles, Musical Instrument for pipe organs, Gunner for artillery pieces. Any mechanical (sub-)system that isn't complex enough to warrant one of these is probably specialized enough that its operators and repairers are the same people, doing the same tasks. In that case, a separate operator skill would be redundant.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by thrash

Is there ever a case, however, where such on-board vehicle engineers are expected to hand over repairs to someone else once they detect a problem? Or is the expert handling and monitoring just one facet of "diagnose and fix ordinary mechanical problems"? The "Skills for Design, Repair, and Use" box on p. 190 says explicitly that Driving is the operator skill for vehicles.

A flight engineer typically cannot perform any engine repairs during the flight, because the engine is unreachable. They might be involved in repairing them on the ground, but they might not - there's often a ground crew doing that work.

Expert handling and monitoring isn't just noticing and addressing 'mechanical problems'. There are tons of adjustments that can be made to engine operation. Manual adjustment of fuel mix, radiators, and aspiration are all things that are possible on some engine setups. In many aircraft those are/were the responsibility of the pilot (if for no other reason than not having space for an engineer), but on a ship with an engineer it's likely that neither the helmsman nor the officer of the watch would know what they were doing meddling with such things.

Originally Posted by thrash

On a steam locomotive, the engineer has Driving (Locomotive); the fireman, who operates the steam engine, has Mechanic (Steam Engine); the brakeman has Mechanic (Locomotive), because he deals with the other vehicle systems as well. There's no need for a separate Operator (Steam Engine) skill, because getting the best performance out of the engine is a maintenance issue.

I submit that a sufficiently complex mechanical system (or, more likely, a system-of-systems) already has a separate operator skill somewhere in the GURPS inventory: Driving for vehicles, Musical Instrument for pipe organs, Gunner for artillery pieces. Any mechanical (sub-)system that isn't complex enough to warrant one of these is probably specialized enough that its operators and repairers are the same people, doing the same tasks. In that case, a separate operator skill would be redundant.

You're not really presenting any argument for your critical assertion that operation and repair are the same task, whether or not they're done by the same people.

I would say it's rather obvious that they're not the same task - most repairs are done (and usually can be done) only while the equipment in question is shut down. For obvious reasons, operation has exactly the opposite tendency.

EDIT: And they can easily wind up split between different people as well. Sure, a shipboard engineer does repairs underway (or adrift, if things come to that) but there are repairs they can't do without bringing the ship to a dockyard - and the dockyard is going to have its own engineers who do those sorts of repairs on a regular basis but seldom actually are running a ship.