Electrician Design-Repair-Use Triad

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

How is that a matter transmitter?

It seems that what you are describing is a setup for providing electric power from a natural energy source. I would call designing it Engineer (Electrical), repairing it Electrician, and operating it Professional Skill: Power Plant Operator or maybe Machine Operation: Solar Power Plant. There isn't really a skill that precisely fits, so you need to fake it. But I don't see that it does anything that could be called matter transmission.

Electricity is the movement of matter (usually electrons but anything that has an electric charge would work) through conductors in the presence of potentials and electric fields. Now I would work out on definitions:

Transmission: the action or process of transmitting something.
Transmit: cause (something) to pass on from one person or place to another.

So it fits perfectly, and this way that specialty is not limited to teletransport. Am I the only one who has realized this?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Electricity is the movement of matter (usually electrons but anything that has an electric charge would work) through conductors in the presence of potentials and electric fields. Now I would work out on definitions:

Transmission: the action or process of transmitting something.
Transmit: cause (something) to pass on from one person or place to another.

So it fits perfectly, and this way that specialty is not limited to teletransport. Am I the only one who has realized this?

This interpretation rests on taking a phrase, "matter transmitter," to mean what the words literally convey, word by word, rather than what they are customarily used to mean. That sort of reading is likely to result in misunderstandings, and I think in this case it has done so.

The definition of the skill in the rules is "All matter transmitters and teleporters.
Critical failures can be disastrous, especially when transmitting living beings!" The use of the term "teleporter" points to what sort of devices are intended to be addressed: Machines like the Star Trek "transporter" that change the location of macroscopic objects, using some sort of electronic process (typically a scanning process comparable to that for sending images via television).

It's true that electrons are technically "matter," but they are too small to be seen, even under microscopes, and in human technology they are used to carry energy and/or information, so it's customary to describe electricity as "energy."

I'd also point out that even by your definition, the solar power plant is not a "transmitter" or "transporter." What it does is take in photons and use their energy to separate electrons from nuclei, producing a charge and an electrical potential. Getting the electrons to somewhere where the energy they have acquired can do useful work is done with wires. (Transformers may also enter into it, but in that case it's not the same electrons; one set of electrons do the work of creating magnetic fields which do the work of moving electrons in a different set of wires. It's only the energy that is transmitted.) In principle you could say that power lines are devices for "matter transmission" in your sense o the word—but they are already completely covered by Electrician and Engineer (Electrical); extending ER (Matter Transmitter) to include something that is covered by a quite different skill would be mistaking the intent of the rules, which is to divide up electrical and electronic technology into discrete categories with little overlap.

Extending the content of EO and ER (Matter Transmitters) in this way creates the kind of precedent that a munchkin could drive a main battle tank through.

And it could go even further than that. Here is a radio. You speak into a microphone. It creates or modulates an electric current. This is turned into a radio signal, which is picked up by one or more other radios, where it is turned back into another electric current, which then causes earphones or loudspeakers to output sound. Do you consider that to be "matter transmission"? By your definition it seems that it could be; yes, it's done to send information, but the information is in the form of an electric current, and by your argument electric currents are "matter." So then if things are taken your way, a matter transmitter technician can handle radios, televisions, sound systems, and other communication devices. I really think the only sound response to this has to be, "That can't be right."

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

This interpretation rests on taking a phrase, "matter transmitter," to mean what the words literally convey, word by word, rather than what they are customarily used to mean. That sort of reading is likely to result in misunderstandings, and I think in this case it has done so.

The definition of the skill in the rules is "All matter transmitters and teleporters.
Critical failures can be disastrous, especially when transmitting living beings!" The use of the term "teleporter" points to what sort of devices are intended to be addressed: Machines like the Star Trek "transporter" that change the location of macroscopic objects, using some sort of electronic process (typically a scanning process comparable to that for sending images via television).

It's true that electrons are technically "matter," but they are too small to be seen, even under microscopes, and in human technology they are used to carry energy and/or information, so it's customary to describe electricity as "energy."

I'd also point out that even by your definition, the solar power plant is not a "transmitter" or "transporter." What it does is take in photons and use their energy to separate electrons from nuclei, producing a charge and an electrical potential. Getting the electrons to somewhere where the energy they have acquired can do useful work is done with wires. (Transformers may also enter into it, but in that case it's not the same electrons; one set of electrons do the work of creating magnetic fields which do the work of moving electrons in a different set of wires. It's only the energy that is transmitted.) In principle you could say that power lines are devices for "matter transmission" in your sense o the word—but they are already completely covered by Electrician and Engineer (Electrical); extending ER (Matter Transmitter) to include something that is covered by a quite different skill would be mistaking the intent of the rules, which is to divide up electrical and electronic technology into discrete categories with little overlap.

Extending the content of EO and ER (Matter Transmitters) in this way creates the kind of precedent that a munchkin could drive a main battle tank through.

And it could go even further than that. Here is a radio. You speak into a microphone. It creates or modulates an electric current. This is turned into a radio signal, which is picked up by one or more other radios, where it is turned back into another electric current, which then causes earphones or loudspeakers to output sound. Do you consider that to be "matter transmission"? By your definition it seems that it could be; yes, it's done to send information, but the information is in the form of an electric current, and by your argument electric currents are "matter." So then if things are taken your way, a matter transmitter technician can handle radios, televisions, sound systems, and other communication devices. I really think the only sound response to this has to be, "That can't be right."

Actually the metal conductive plates on the sides of the solar cells collect the electrons and then transfer them to wires to turn them into usable power. With AC you can periodically reverse their direction. What the photons do is to knock electrons free from atoms.

Flow of electrons.

So you are basically transmitting electrons, which are matter. And you still need Electrician to do the installation and maintenance. I think it is actually pretty clear, is not it?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Actually the metal conductive plates on the sides of the solar cells collect the electrons and then transfer them to wires to turn them into usable power. With AC you can periodically reverse their direction. What the photons do is to knock electrons free from atoms.

Flow of electrons.

So you are basically transmitting electrons, which are matter. And you still need Electrician to do the installation and maintenance. I think it is actually pretty clear, is not it?

No, it's not. Which part of the system do you think is "transmitting matter"? The silicon? The contacts that the electrons are transferred to? The wires inside the plant? The wires leading from the plant to the places where the power is used?

And why do you think that part, whatever it is, is better described as falling under ER (Matter Transmitters) than under Electrician, which is the skill for generating, transmitting, and (in certain cases) utilizing electrical energy?

I would also point out that you haven't addressed my argument that what you are actually doing is transmitting energy, and using the electrons as a medium for doing so. In the same way, in a telephone, you are transmitting information (an audio frequency signal) and using electrons as a medium for doing so. Do you think that ER (Matter Transmitters) should allow you to repair a telephone? If not, then why should it allow you to repair a power plant?

Oh, and incidentally, I'm pretty sure you can't get AC out of a solar battery. The internal junction is polarized and only works in one direction. You need an inverter or similar device to turn the DC into AC.

[Refplace]

Alonsua, can you change your fault back to default? In this thread it is extremely hard to read your words so I have avoided trying to answer your questions.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

No, it's not. Which part of the system do you think is "transmitting matter"? The silicon? The contacts that the electrons are transferred to? The wires inside the plant? The wires leading from the plant to the places where the power is used?

And why do you think that part, whatever it is, is better described as falling under ER (Matter Transmitters) than under Electrician, which is the skill for generating, transmitting, and (in certain cases) utilizing electrical energy?

I would also point out that you haven't addressed my argument that what you are actually doing is transmitting energy, and using the electrons as a medium for doing so. In the same way, in a telephone, you are transmitting information (an audio frequency signal) and using electrons as a medium for doing so. Do you think that ER (Matter Transmitters) should allow you to repair a telephone? If not, then why should it allow you to repair a power plant?

Oh, and incidentally, I'm pretty sure you can't get AC out of a solar battery. The internal junction is polarized and only works in one direction. You need an inverter or similar device to turn the DC into AC.

Of course you need an inverter, which usually is an electronic device.
For the telephones, radios, etc. you actually have Electronics Operation (Communications) if it gets too messy to work with it at default.
So on the one hand you have Engineer (Electronics) + Electronics Repair (Communications) + Electronics Operation (Communications) and on the other hand you are trying to put Engineer (Electrical) + Electrician + Electrician, yet you know that products such as protection relays, alarm annunciator panels, engine controllers and diagnostics tend to be electronic.
I hope that the problem is not just in then needing Electronics Repair (Matter Transmitters) to repair such things, because I do not think that Electrician fixes them, do you? Because the Electrician skill itself reads "Note that electrical and electronic systems are not the same thing".
And allow me to say that a critical failure with Electronics Operation (Matter Transmitters) is not far from disastrous when your nuclear power plant core explodes creating Chernobyl.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Of course you need an inverter, which usually is an electronic device.
For the telephones, radios, etc. you actually have Electronics Operation (Communications) if it gets too messy to work with it at default.
So on the one hand you have Engineer (Electronics) + Electronics Repair (Communications) + Electronics Operation (Communications) and on the other hand you are trying to put Engineer (Electrical) + Electrician + Electrician, yet you know that products such as protection relays, alarm annunciator panels, engine controllers and diagnostics tend to be electronic.
I hope that the problem is not just in then needing Electronics Repair (Matter Transmitters) to repair such things, because I do not think that Electrician fixes them, do you? Because the Electrician skill itself reads "Note that electrical and electronic systems are not the same thing".
And allow me to say that a critical failure with Electronics Operation (Matter Transmitters) is not far from disastrous when your nuclear power plant core explodes creating Chernobyl.

(1) A present-day car contains computer chips that direct a lot of its functions, especially if it's a hybrid. Part of the process of controlling it may involve using a digital interface. Does that mean that if your car stops working, you take it to a computer technician who rolls against Electronics Repair (Computers) or perhaps against Computer Programming? Or do you take it to an auto mechanic who rolls against Mechanic (Automobile)?

If the latter, then the presence of computer components in a system does not make that system a computer, or make ER (Computers) the skill you use to maintain and repair it. And in the same way, the presence of electronic components in, say, a household's electrical wiring doesn't mean you use Electronics Repair to fix a problem with it.

Nor does the argument apply at all to older household electrical systems, or power plants. I grew up in a household with circuit breakers that were basically fancy relays, and the generation before me had fuse boxes full of fuses. And there were motor/generator systems where a DC motor turned the shaft of an AC generator, or vice versa.

(2) Do you believe that the fact that an intercom transmits voice from point A to point B using a flow of electrons in wires means that you roll vs. Electronics Repair (Matter Transmitters) to fix an intercom? If not, then why does the fact that a power station sends energy to houses and factories via electrons in wires imply that the power station is a Matter Transmitter?

[Daigoro]

Campaigns p512 puts Matter Transmitters under Transportation Superscience, that is, like in Star Trek or The Fly, and is mentioned many times here.

Elon Musk might be clever, but I don't think Tesla's solar panels are based on superscience.

Power transmission, over power lines, beamed, or however, is a real, valid technology, and would be valid Engineering, Electrician and Elec Ops specialties.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Power transmission, over power lines, beamed, or however, is a real, valid technology, and would be valid Engineering, Electrician and Elec Ops specialties.

There isn't an operation skill that corresponds to Electrician. That's part of why all this discussion is going on.

Given the general pattern of there being an operation skill for each repair skill, I think there ought to be one operation skill for electrical gear. But I wouldn't require it for gear that's trivial to use, like an electric light, or for gear that's covered by an existing skill, like the use of a motorized lathe for Machinist, or for electrical parts in a larger system that's meant to have nonelectrical effects, like the electrical connections between a Diesel engine, batteries, and an electric motor in a submarine or locomotive.

What would be covered, then? I think largely power supplies and power distribution systems. A week ago C and I went with a friend to the San Bernardino museum; one of the exhibits they had was electrical apparatus from an early power station. It apparently needed a human operator to adjust it to the fluctuating demands for power; there were switches and meters and suchlike. So there's at least the skill of Electric Power Operations.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by whswhs

There isn't an operation skill that corresponds to Electrician. That's part of why all this discussion is going on.

There isn't one listed in the Basic Set, but I didn't see that list as exhaustive, especially with the wording "You must specialize. Available specialties vary by game world, but might include:"

I'd say someone who works here (as a random illustrative example), has:
Electronic Ops (Power plant controls)
Electrician (Power plant and/or transmission)

...as well as skills relevant to the specific kind of power generation, such as nuclear, solar, hydro, gas or coal.

But I wasn't really speaking to the triad problem, but more against the matter transmission idea.

I guess my solution would be to say that Electronic Ops is actually Electrical Ops at TLs 5-6, but as you say, it's hard to think of enough examples to make it worth defining.