07-11-2018, 10:51 AM | #91 |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Meifumado
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Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.
While ST ratings can be objectively reality tested using BL, I wouldn't put too much weight on what ST means in terms of damage as the ST/damage table is purely arbitrary. Starting at Thr 1d-2 for ST 10 and going up in nice little increments, it's purely gamist. There's nothing wrong with that, it just doesn't make an argument for how to match ST to reality.
Damage is matched to reality in terms of steel and DR, but the ST table would have to be derived from that using first principles.
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07-11-2018, 11:52 AM | #92 | ||||
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
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Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.
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So, the cap numbers you choose for basic attributes will depend on which genre you want to play, of course. But there is still no need to change what is written in How to be a GURPS GM: if you want to play a harshly realistic game, it is obvious that you won’t take (or allow, as GM) attributes above 14, because 15 is described as: 15-16: Amazing (highest you’ll likely see or hear about, strongly defines an adventurer).So, no harshly realistic PC can be the highest everyone around is likely to see or hear about. Pretending to be the best of the world in a realistic campaign already begins to be unrealistic: why would your character be that powerful, while all others are supposed to be just ordinary people? Now defining 15 as the mythic maximum is just a waste of time, in my humble opinion, because mythic characters are not supposed to fall in the harshly realistic genre. They are supposed to be far much higher than every real man will ever be. Conan can fight a gorilla barehanded. Walter O’Brien (in the Scorpion TV series) is supposed to have a so high IQ that he knows everything about everything, at a higher level than experts. A GURPS IQ of 18-20 allows that (with mental default skills ranging from 12 to 16). As a GURPS ST of 18-20 allows Conan to do what he is supposed to do in books and movies. Just give them a harshly realistic score of 14-15 and they are not anymore able to do what they are supposed to do. Alonsua, you said in your thread that you only wanted to discuss about realistic characters. That’s a good idea – and I do agree with most of what you said about that. But why do you suddenly want to reduce heroic characters (legendary, mythic ones) to realistic abilities only (cap of 14 and 15, respectively)? Quote:
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07-11-2018, 02:58 PM | #93 | |
Banned
Join Date: May 2017
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Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.
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14: Legendary (historical “bests” and remarkable fictional heroes). To be realistic among historical bests and 15: Mythic (astounding even among great heroes in fiction and folklore). To be the best among the historical bests. Maybe I got it wrong? Pd. Gorillas have ST 15 with lower intelligence and low skills, so Conan at the same ST with higher intelligence and better combat skills can put them down. He can even do it with ST 14 and still be stronger than them by undergoing some Lifting or Lifting Strength training :) Last edited by Alonsua; 07-11-2018 at 03:01 PM. |
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07-11-2018, 04:09 PM | #94 | |
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.
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07-11-2018, 04:15 PM | #95 | |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.
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07-11-2018, 04:17 PM | #96 | |
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.
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BTW it's entirely arbitrary to model a world class strength athlete by deciding they have a combination of ST and Lifting skill 18. It seems extremely likely to me that they have at least some level of Lifting ST for example. Also I said that world class strength athletes are 4x stronger or more than an average healthy adult male. Assuming that our Joe Sixpack is ST 10, our world class athletes do in fact lift more than 4x that amount. Of course the exact factor breaks down pretty quickly under examination, for example our average man might be able to bench 135lbs, squat 125lbs and deadlift 155lbs. Using my google-fu, our world class bench is over 700lbs (over 5x), squat over 1000lbs (over 8x) and deadlift over 1100lbs (over 7x). Right away we can see a problem in that our multipliers vary radically between 5x and 8x, whereas in RAW GURPS the multipliers should be consistent. And powerlifting is merely one way to be a strength athlete. We could look at strongman instead or Olympic lifting. I bet the multipliers would be different there. Also, Olympic lifting is a very technical sport, so to the extent that a corrected version of Lifting skill should be used, Olympic lifters should have a higher Lifting skill than say powerlifters but it would be a specialised version. Strongmen who train a wide variety of feats would have a higher Lifting skill than powerlifters and it would not be specialised. So anyway these facts and the discussion of them shows that reality does not conform to GURPS rules. But it also shows that the 'strongest possible' humans can lift significantly more than 4x an average man. So I mentally write off the excess as something other than ST, probably a combination of a fixed version of Lifting skill and Lifting ST, and say ST 20 is reasonable and realistic for a strongest possible human. https://www.livestrong.com/article/3...rage-man-lift/ Last edited by mr beer; 07-11-2018 at 04:37 PM. |
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07-11-2018, 04:30 PM | #97 | |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.
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07-11-2018, 04:31 PM | #98 | |
Banned
Join Date: May 2017
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Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.
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07-11-2018, 05:03 PM | #99 | |
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.
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So lets review the skill in question with a real world example: On a success, increase your Basic Lift by 5% per point by which you made your roll. Now, roughly 18% of the time we are going to roll either 3 to 6 or 15 to 18. Lets look at a man who goes to the gym and has some Lifting skill but he's just a part timer, so say skill 10. He can bench 200lbs from ST alone (probably a combination of ST and Lifting ST). So 18% of the time he is going to succeed by 4 to 7 points and bench 240lbs to 270lbs or fail his roll and bench 200lbs. That sort of variation simply doesn't exist. If I can reliably bench 200lbs (which I can), then on a great day I might bench 205lbs and on a bad day 195lbs, there's no 35% variation. There's not even a 10% variation. Do this 20 times on 20 different days, with 20 different "rolls" and you won't see more than 5% at the very most. Scale this up to world class lifters with your Lifting skill 18, we should see variable bonii constantly ranging between 60% and 10%. There is no real world swinging 50% variation in what someone can lift. It's not even vaguely accurate. So where does this leave us? Well if you want to model the 'real world' in GURPS, you need to make some interpretations. In my case, I'm observing that real humans are more than 4x stronger than an average man, the extra is whatever, therefore ST 20 is plausible. |
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07-11-2018, 06:05 PM | #100 |
Munchkin Line Editor
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
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Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.
Locked until the GURPS team can take a look and sort out what the hell is going on here.
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