Weapons 100+ years after the end?

[scc]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Actually a low TL (1-4) has access to more than just a "day or two's travel", but yes, one isn't getting rare earths from China transported into the US in a post-apoc setting.

Depending on TL and how well communities can create and maintain trade networks, you could have trade networks spanning large areas of the US (for example), even from coast to coast.

For re-industrailization you aren't going to be needing those sorts of metals but rather iron, copper, and brass/bronze. The issue of easy access deposits is one that exists but.

That said I'd say that Mad Max might actually be on the nose here as Australia's mineral resources are the most untapped in the world and it's an even harder place to invade then the US.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Waxed cardboard would be fairly rare 100 years AtE, and brass is difficult to make without zinc (though you could salvage it from antiques or musical instruments).

Paper is a 2000 year old technology. And beeswax is even older. :) And if you don't like that then just make all brass shells- they are historical. As I have said, there are materials laying around everywhere. Just melt down your old split cartridges (or any of a nearly infinite amount of other fixtures made of brass).

You seem focused upon full supply-line manufacture starting with ore in the ground and then transportation infrastructure, smelting, etc. And I think that's not the correct model, here. Or at least it's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about artisanal manufacture that's sufficient to keep the militia armed, not a Vietnam-era 20,000 rounds per kill level of fire superiority. Think more of a wild west posse, not full-on mechanized infantry. The tough part is deciding exactly which guns to arm the posse with. But they will have guns, not baseball bats and crowbars.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The problem is population and resources. If you do not have a minimum population of 10 million people within a close trade network, you probably cannot sustain a TL 5 civilization. Without petroleum fuels, you probably cannot sustain a TL 6 civilization without inventing completely new energy technologies.

But we aren't talking about sustaining a high technology "civilization" (whatever that is). We're talking about making guns- a very handy and high demand product- even if only via artisanal manufacture a la Khyber copies. And isolated populations much less than 10 million have proven that they can cobble together perfectly functional TL7 guns, and in significant numbers. If just one warlord decides to set up his "smart guys" (a machinist and a chemist) to make guns and ammunition, then pretty soon he'd have a small force armed to TL7 standards. Well, at least on the individual and squad scale- artillery is more challenging.

Real life doesn't work in "tech levels." Such shorthand notations are handy to help describe the historical development of technology for game purposes, but an AtE setting almost by definition breaks it. People won't magically forget every technology that has been developed since Marston Moor. And just because a settlement can't spit out jet turbines doesn't mean that they can't machine an SMLE and a couple of boxes of ammo for it.

And a Remington Rolling Block would be even easier. I'm a bit of a fan. The proposition that even if you can make a caplock musket that you can't just as easily make a Rolling Block makes me chuckle. People upthread talking about "breechloaders" should probably be more precise. Not their fault- the nomenclature is correct- but "breechloader" can mean very different things. And the only one of them that requires impressive levels of milling precision is a non-cartridge breechloader, like the Ferguson or such. But both a shotgun and a Rolling Block are also "breechloaders", and use the cartridge to provide obturation, not a tightly-fitted breechblock itself.

Trade really isn't a problem, here- there will be materials laying around everywhere. And even if you are somehow short of brass we're still talking about a TL5 level of supply for an army. Just one trade wagon with some bar stock will set you up for years' worth of shells. And, of course, you could just use aluminum, which can be recycled even more easily than brass and which it is difficult imagining to be in short supply anywhere. Heck, there will be entire engine blocks made of the stuff sitting around. Aircraft. Boats. Etc.

If anything lead might be harder to come by, once the car batteries have been used up. It's harder to recover your lead than to recover your brass. :)

Granted, this is all assuming that population levels remain low for quite a while. If this 100 years AtE society has a planetary population in the hundreds of millions then, yes, there might be issues with shortages of some stuff. But even then they could mine old dumps.

[weby]

Originally Posted by acrosome

But we aren't talking about sustaining a high technology "civilization" (whatever that is). We're talking about making guns- a very handy and high demand product- even if only via artisanal manufacture a la Khyber copies. And isolated populations much less than 10 million have proven that they can cobble together perfectly functional TL7 guns, and in significant numbers. If just one warlord decides to set up his "smart guys" (a machinist and a chemist) to make guns and ammunition, then pretty soon he'd have a small force armed to TL7 standards. Well, at least on the individual and squad scale- artillery is more challenging.

I agree with most of what you are saying but a couple of minor points.

Khyber pass firearms are known for fairly bad reliability, specially the automatic ones, things like SMLE seem to be more reliable, but still a bit iffy. So if you want to use them as example then a TL 7 firearm made by such methods would be very unreliable and a TL 6 likely unreliable.

As for arty: making early TL 6 artillery is "trivial" and late TL 6 artillery is fairly easy(getting the recoil reduction system working reliably is a problem) if you have enough materials. Making a low velocity weapon like a mortar is even easier. Though in all cases you will have significant % of non exploding shells due to likely problems with fuses.

Overall the biggest problem with artillery is the amount of materials they consume, specially when used, not the manufacturing.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by weby

Khyber pass firearms are known for fairly bad reliability, specially the automatic ones, things like SMLE seem to be more reliable, but still a bit iffy. So if you want to use them as example then a TL 7 firearm made by such methods would be very unreliable and a TL 6 likely unreliable.

Quality varies widely, brother. Many are quite good copies. Certainly good enough for the AtE setting, which is what we're talking about.

Originally Posted by weby

As for arty: making early TL 6 artillery is "trivial" and late TL 6 artillery is fairly easy(getting the recoil reduction system working reliably is a problem) if you have enough materials. Making a low velocity weapon like a mortar is even easier. Though in all cases you will have significant % of non exploding shells due to likely problems with fuses.

Overall the biggest problem with artillery is the amount of materials they consume, specially when used, not the manufacturing.

Well, my point was that it is a lot easier to find already-existing high quality steel from which to make receivers and barrels for small arms than it is for artillery, which needs much larger stock. Not mortars- cannon. Mortars are a major potential AtE force multiplier for which I have advocated at least twice before on this forum. Even something as primitive as a barracks buster would be very useful.