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Old 03-18-2009, 01:52 AM   #11
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: [Thaumaturgy] Esoteric Catholicism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thulben
If by your "gaming friends" you mean the people in your group, then this isn't a problem, but rather an advantage! You can make crap up, attach it to one or more of the real world orders and you're good to go. Since it's fantasy anyways, I don't think anyone will beat you up for associating fictional powers to real world organizations, even if it doesn't fit with the real world tropes.
All people have knowledge at several different levels.

High level knowledge is that which we know with factual certainty. Below that is intermediate knowlede, low knowledge, and indirect peripheral knowledge.

It is extremely possible, in any kind of fiction, be it interactive (such as being a GM or player in a roleplaying gaming campaign) or non-interactive (such as reading a book, or watching a movie or television show episide) to be exposed to something which feels wrong, to one, even though one does not have any high level knowledge that contradicts the stimily from the fiction.

The reason for this is that the stimuli from the fiction does not contradict one's high level knowledge, but rather one's intermediate knowledge, or one's low-level knowledge, or even one's indirect periphrral knowledge. One thus cannot say why it is wrong, and one may not even be able to poinpoint that which one feels is wrong, but one does feel that something is wrong, and one is correct in this.


When a person, who has grown up in any European or American country, claims to know almost nothing about Christianity, that is always a factually incorrect statement. All such persons know a lot of Christianity - they just don't know it as high level knowledge; they aren't able to say what they know.

They are only able to sense, and perhaps even quite vaguely, when they are exposed to something which contradicts that which they know at lower levels. Their Wrongness Detection System functions.

And that's why getting one's facts right is always immensely valuable, even if they aren't facts of truth, but rather are facs of myth, including such things as Christian mythology. E.g. different prevalenes for different kinds of supernatural abilitiers ascribed by the laity to members of the different Roman-Catholic orders, such as Carmelites being believed to particularly often exhibit efficient and working healing hands (note I'm just making this up - I don't know this myself, at least not on the high level, and I don't think I know that Carmelites were said to often have this ability on a lower level either - I do honestly believe I picked Carmlites at random) and that Fransicans can calm, tame and even communicate with animals (this one is partially based on vague knowledge - I do remember, as in high level, that Francis of Assissi could do cute tricks with beasts).


If the OP follows thulben's advice, then his setting will not feel true and realistic.
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Old 03-18-2009, 05:41 AM   #12
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Default Re: [Thaumaturgy] Esoteric Catholicism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen
and that Fransicans can calm, tame and even communicate with animals (this one is partially based on vague knowledge - I do remember, as in high level, that Francis of Assissi could do cute tricks with beasts).
Which is not a bad source of inspiration for the kinds of magic appropriate for a Christian church. Get a Bible and a book of saints (The Golden Legend is a medieval one that's available in English) and look at the miracles performed. Though miraculous healing, smiting the enemies of god, temporarily delaying martyrdom, and casting out demons cover a lot of them.
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Old 03-18-2009, 06:11 AM   #13
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: [Thaumaturgy] Esoteric Catholicism?

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Originally Posted by malloyd
Which is not a bad source of inspiration for the kinds of magic appropriate for a Christian church. Get a Bible and a book of saints (The Golden Legend is a medieval one that's available in English) and look at the miracles performed. Though miraculous healing, smiting the enemies of god, temporarily delaying martyrdom, and casting out demons cover a lot of them.
I've got a Bible; just haven't been able to read it. I gave it another try last year, but got badly stuck about 1/3 into the first book (Genesis?) because the material was so extremely familiar to me, in a non-high-level-knowledge sort of way (and that which wasn't familiar was boring genealogy. Isn't the Old Testament supposed to be full of exciting stuff, like good old-fashioned sex & violence?).

I'll try again soon, though. Probably skip ehad to the book after Genesis (Exudos?) or even right to the Gospels. The problem might be that the Old Testament teaching in my primary school years spent a lot of time on that first book.


Another Christian-themed power is Hold Person, the old D&D staple. I read about it in English Wikipedia a few months ago; I think it was either Saint Patrick or Saint Martin of Tours, who held up his hand and thus forced a pagan burial procession to stop in its track, unable to continue until he permitted it by lowering his hand. (I'm not sure which one, but given that it was a versus-pagans situation, I suspect Saint Patrick is more likely, since he was very much about versus-the-druids.)

Probably rather less mythically supported, but expected by players and IMO being a reasonable expectation, is Turn Unded. Or possibly a more general Turn Evil, which turns both Undead and Demons.

Also powers of Detect Unholy or even Analyze Unholy. Even if Turn Undead is seen as being too blatant (not by me, though. Several Ärth characters have it), being able to sense when Undead are near is highly useful.


And wasn't there a scene late in the New Testament, where the Holy Spirit comes down and gifts the Apostles with a kind of Super Language Talent, so that they can spread The Message(tm)?

The multilingualism of the protagonists in the movie "The Boondock Saints" seemed to resonate with my low-level (or, more likely, with my indirect peripheral) knowledge at that exact point in the movie.
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Old 03-18-2009, 06:30 AM   #14
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Default Re: [Thaumaturgy] Esoteric Catholicism?

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen
I'll try again soon, though. Probably skip ehad to the book after Genesis (Exudos?) or even right to the Gospels. The problem might be that the Old Testament teaching in my primary school years spent a lot of time on that first book.
Skip ahead to the historical books, starting at Joshua in most Christian arrangements. The first five books of the Old Testament, and the first 4 of the New, are the holy laws and revealed truth parts, the rest of the material is the history and literature.

Quote:
And wasn't there a scene late in the New Testament, where the Holy Spirit comes down and gifts the Apostles with a kind of Super Language Talent, so that they can spread The Message(tm)?
Yes, in Acts, though that version is a little more complex than just granting languages. You could have seen it elsewhere, the gift of tongues is one of the standard charismas.
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Old 03-18-2009, 07:30 AM   #15
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Default Re: [Thaumaturgy] Esoteric Catholicism?

Since yesterday was St. Patrick's day, I'll add this. When St. Patrick composed the Lorica of St. Patrick (or Breastplate of St. Patrick, which is a prayer), he was being hunted by the local king and his men. As he sang this prayer, he walked right through the kings hunting party because all the king's men saw was a group of harts (deer).

That could be the seed of a pretty powerful magic spell, the ability to conceal yourself in plain sight.
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Old 03-18-2009, 10:44 AM   #16
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Default Re: [Thaumaturgy] Esoteric Catholicism?

@shadowmane, sounds like Invisibility Art to me. Maybe St. Patrick was secretly a ninja? ;)

As someone who was raised Catholic and attented a Catholic school for the first 9 years of his education here are a few personal impressions and feelings about teh Church:

Nuns are scary. There's something about them that is unnerving. They're also masters of the guilt trip. Priests are much friendlier by far.

The Church is not telling us everything they know. There's nothing specific, but I"ll be damned if there aren't enough subliminal things to give you goosebumps. May or may not be demons, but it's best to be safe and superstitious than find out you're wrong the hard way.

Much of the Mass, even in English as opposed to Latin, is kinda foreign, weird, and mysterious in feel. If you're not Catholic, it has a vey cultish feel.

Jesuits are the Catholic green berret. If weird and bad **** is happenning to you, find a Jesuit. They're the ones that perform exorcisms and have access to much of that "everything they're not telling us."

Any church is a safe haven. IF you're in trouble of any kind--especially supernatural--get you're butt in a church. Evil cannot enter a church; you'll be safe. If it's trouble of a natural kind, the priests and nuns will help you. As mentioned above, nuns are scary, so it follows that having them on your side is usually a good thing.

These are all personal things as seen from a Catholic. If you need more, I would suggest looking up the history of individual saints and any organizations they founded. You could shape magic and powers after the causes they have charged their organizations to perform. But above all, remember that the Church harbors secrets--that is the heart of the flavor of the Church and why movies like The Omen and The Exorcist scare the crap out of us. They simply feel wrong.

Incidentally, if you want an interesting read, look up exactly what the Church requires to perform an exorcism. It's freaky as hell. And they require video evidence of it. Additionally, as a caveat, Catholic.com actually says that the Bell Witch is the only spirit recorded as taking a life. Look up that fun legend; the Church doesn't normally support things like that openly. Also, no where in the Bible (make sure you have the King James version, or a similarly Chuch-sanctioned one for whatever translation you require) does it say that the Devil or his underlings are unable to take a life; that is merely dogma produced by the Church--it may or may not be true. They also play up the fact that while the Devil may not take a life, he sure as hell can torture the crap out of you.

Sorry so long. Hope it's worth it.
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Old 03-18-2009, 11:34 AM   #17
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Default Re: [Thaumaturgy] Esoteric Catholicism?

While not magic/power related at all, giving Jesuits a whole mess of contacts would be very reasonable. They're sort of famed for their ability to raise money (side effect of there being thirty Jesuit universities in America, most of which are highly regarded...think of it as your college telethon with a religious bent).
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Old 03-18-2009, 03:52 PM   #18
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Default Re: [Thaumaturgy] Esoteric Catholicism?

Thank you all, gentle folk. Like the idea of Jesuits as spiritual Special Forces. Will take the suggestion of reading the Old Testiment upon advisement. I did read it back in my teenage years, back then...

I think I will trawl for an online listing of miracles. The examples you gave were great. I want more :)

This is coming together for me, BTW. I have details, some known, and some esoteric. I have some fictional and real groupings and organisations within the Catholic church. Now I just need some BW pictures of priest and prelates from the 1920's, and I am set.
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Old 03-18-2009, 08:40 PM   #19
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Default Re: [Thaumaturgy] Esoteric Catholicism?

When reading the Old Testament, you will run into a lot of Geneologies. Skip them. Deuteronomy is just a book of laws. No story there, but Genesis and Exodus are all story.

Joshua tell the story of the setting up of the kingdom of Israel. Judges and Ruth tell the story of the Judges of Israel, the defenders of Israel before there was a king.

1st and 2nd Kings and 1st and 2nd Samuel tells the story of Kings Saul, David and Solomon extensively, and the history of their descendants in a more sporadic way.

After that you have the Psalms, Proverbs, the Song of Solomon and Ecclesiastes. These are all wisdom books.

After them, you will find books of Prophecy and the Book of Daniel, which is a combination of story and prophecy. Its where the story of Daniel in the Lion's Den comes from.

In the New Testament, the first four books are the story of Jesus. Matthew and Luke go into detail (Matthew being the most detailed), and Mark is like a newspaper story, or short biography just hitting the high points.

Acts tells the story of the Disciples after Jesus' death.

After that, you have letters. Even Revelation is a letter written cryptically.

Hope that helps.
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Old 03-18-2009, 09:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: [Thaumaturgy] Esoteric Catholicism?

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Originally Posted by Luke Bunyip
What I am after is a "flavour suggestion", sort of a "Dominicans could do this, Jesuits could do that" type thing. Any help would be greatly appreciated. What I am after is vague templates of what advantages, skills and spells a group of Catholic Church associated NPC's could have under their belts.
I once set up a game set in medieval Europe with a handful of holy Orders as groups with esoteric martial arts skills, going for a Brotherhood of the Wolf/Pacte des Loups feel crossed with a European version of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

My Orders, very broadly were:
Cistercians - ritual magicians
Dominicans - exorcists, interrogators, and spirit handlers
Franciscans - animal-friendly quarterstaff masters
Hospitallers - armored warriors and healers
Jesuits - masters of intrigue
Templars - armored warriors and users of war magic

I have some material for this, but it's 3e and heavily houseruled, so it may be of limited interest. Private Message me if you'd like it emailed to you.
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