Spending Bonus Character Points

[WhiteLily]

As per Exploits P. 92, "To improve an existing trait that comes in levels, pay points equal to the difference in cost between the new and old levels."

Fairly straight forward. Under the RAW, would I be allowed to purchase up part of a stat while taking consummate penalties for derivative stats.

For example, can I:
- Increase a Wizard's IQ by 1, but only pay 15 by taking -5 to Perception so that I get the skill, will and spell benefits without the perception benefits?
- Increase a Knight's HT by 1, but similarly pay only 5 by taking -5 to speed so that I get the skill, magic saves, and ability to continue fighting and avoid stun from damage, without the speed bonus?

[Dalin]

I don’t see why not. I have always allowed that sort of thing. I like how it differentiates characters, allowing for unobservant wizards and such.

[GnomesofZurich]

Originally Posted by WhiteLily

As per Exploits P. 92, "To improve an existing trait that comes in levels, pay points equal to the difference in cost between the new and old levels."

Fairly straight forward. Under the RAW, would I be allowed to purchase up part of a stat while taking consummate penalties for derivative stats.

For example, can I:
- Increase a Wizard's IQ by 1, but only pay 15 by taking -5 to Perception so that I get the skill, will and spell benefits without the perception benefits?
- Increase a Knight's HT by 1, but similarly pay only 5 by taking -5 to speed so that I get the skill, magic saves, and ability to continue fighting and avoid stun from damage, without the speed bonus?

Under RAW, I would say no, because those deductions would count against your disadvantage cap. However, if you already had bought up a component of an attribute, I'd allow you to pay the difference. If you have Striking ST 1, 5 points would allow you to trade that in for +1 ST.

[Polkageist]

I'll put another vote in for allowing it. The Striking ST note just above reinforces that I think, because when you think about it the reciprocal action of buying a level of striking ST for 5pts is buying 1 point of ST and buying down the HP accordingly. Roughly.

Buying up an attribute and off-setting the derivative stats is approximately the same as buying <thing>-<stat> (i.e. striking st or lifting st). And, conversely, increasing the derived stats without increasing the underlying attribute, is the same as buying up the derived stats and dropping the attribute by 1.

Put another way, if you want to just buy up the attribute without increasing the derived stats, the cost for that is the attribute cost - reducing stats to maintain value. Which is more or less how much things like striking st and lifting st cost.

edit: It's fussy math, but what's the point of GURPS if not to engage with fussy math.

[WhiteLily]

Originally Posted by Polkageist

Put another way, if you want to just buy up the attribute without increasing the derived stats, the cost for that is the attribute cost - reducing stats to maintain value. Which is more or less how much things like striking st and lifting st cost.

It seems natural and intuitive with Striking Strength. Not so much with things like Very Fit, Adventures P. 49: "The bonus to health rolls is +2. In addition, you lose fatigue points to heat, exertion and other mundane effects at half the normal rate." - 15 points

Compare that to spending 15 points to get +3 Health with a corresponding -.75 to speed. This method gives a dramatically better result as you get +3 to all health rolls including skills as opposed to spending 15 points to get only a +2 to health rolls and no skill bonus.

So I think RAW doesn't allow it.

[Polkageist]

Yes, the incredible range of HT related skills such as *checks notes* singing and lifting.

I'll concede the RAW point because... hell GURPS is so modular you're literally supposed to pick and choose the rules (somewhat). I will point out there there are guidelines for improving fixed attributes. And guidelines on why not to allow it. So yeah, it's definitely RAW.

I'll counter though the argument that HT+3 (speed -.75) is dramatically better than Very Fit. Marginally, sure, but the fatigue usage benefits of Very Fit essentially double your FP for a lot of tasks and environmental effects. Right there, "you lose FP at half the rate for <stuff>". That means 10FP is effectively 20FP, a 20 point value!

<crazy eddy voice> BIG SAVINGS!!

So for that example specifically, if you don't know what you want really in a character or aren't super sure what the game world is going to be then yeah HT+3/speed-.75 is a more cost-effective thing whereas Very Fit has good specific application.

Anyway, I think the buy-up/buy-down thing is more for when you have a few points and want to buy up something piecemeal, rather than having a whopping 15 points to blow on whatever. If it's during character creation then you're going to play math games anyway and there's no restriction on tweaking derived stats, and maybe I'm just weird but I haven't seen a player sit on 15 points in a game in progress. There's so many useful things you can spend points on, no one's saving up much past 5.

[WhiteLily]

Carousing proves useful multiple times a session so far, and relates directly to the fantasy RPG trope of going to the tavern and asking about occurrences, one of the key ways to get employed as per Exploits P.14 Finding the Quest.

Furthermore, you can also use it as a Influence skill which would prompt you to do a quick contest of Carousing versus target's Willpower. I think maximizing that skill is wise, and allows for a character with a low IQ to be quite social, particularly if they also go for Sex Appeal.

My game has a fair amount of chasing people across wilderness, so Hiking, Running and Swimming also prove useful.

[Polkageist]

Doubled effective FP means a lot, just saying.

Thinking about my own point, and yours, I feel like I'm seeing a usage divide between skill related effects, and the FP related effects. So, the carousing example the skill will get you into the drinking contest and the FP will help you win said contest.

Or hold your breath longer, or sprint a bit further, and so on.

[WhiteLily]

But the half FP penalty applies to the skills that need the bonus that Very Fit doesn't provide.

For instance, if you are fleeing (Running for Your Life! Exploits P. 22), you roll against Running to avert fatigue for every 15 seconds of exertion, with failure costing a FP.

If you increase your Running skill from 13 to 16, you have increased your chance of success by 14.3% from 83.8% to 98.3%. If you run for a minute, one would expect to lost a FP at a skill level 13 from failing one roll, but you would lose half that if you had very fit.

Compare that to expecting to lose no FPs because you made very roll. Also, with skills such as Swimming, failure results in slipping below the surface and beginning to drown. If you're swimming for your life, this is a roll you don't want to fail.

[Polkageist]

Baseline 83.8% @ 15s/check 10fp
10 checks, 1.62 fails; 6 checks has .972 fails.
90s per fp approximately, so ~900s or 15m of running.

VF 83.8% @ 30s/check 10fp
180s per fp approximately, so 1800s or 30m of running.

HT+ 98.3% @ 15s/check 10fp
60 checks, 1.02 fails
900s per fp approximately, so 9000s or 150m of running.

heh that's cool

edit: hold up so some dude who's totally jacked with HT can just like all out run for over 2 hours.
Marathon man.