Classifying Shields

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Low Tech fixes the anomaly on p. B406 that says Roman scutums (large bucklers) cannot Shield Rush.

Aren't Large Bucklers forbidden in GURPS?
IIRC, Bucklers can be any size except Large.

[Der Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Lupo

Aren't Large Bucklers forbidden in GURPS?
IIRC, Bucklers can be any size except Large.

Well the Judicial Shields as illustrated in the Talhoffer Fechtbuch are at least Large, I would even rate them as gigantic and by GURPS definition bucklers...

@DanHoward: Will there be anything on Judicial Shields that can be used one- or two-handed???

[Polydamas]

On a vaguely related subject, I recently GURPSified this shield test (scroll down). You can replicate the performance of the leather-covered shield by treating it as DR 1-2, HP 16-20, and Homogeneous, which is what an object of that weight should have by the Damaging Objects rules. The plain wood shield seems to have only about 10 HP in GURPS terms. But I've never tried using shield damage rules in an RPG.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Lupo

Aren't Large Bucklers forbidden in GURPS?
IIRC, Bucklers can be any size except Large.

Where? GURPS Bucklers have a hand grip and shield boss. I can't find anything about size.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

On a vaguely related subject, I recently GURPSified this shield test (scroll down). You can replicate the performance of the leather-covered shield by treating it as DR 1-2, HP 16-20, and Homogeneous, which is what an object of that weight should have by the Damaging Objects rules. The plain wood shield seems to have only about 10 HP in GURPS terms. But I've never tried using shield damage rules in an RPG.

The shield tables in Low Tech assume a solid metal/wood/hide construction with DR 4 and the Hit Points taken directly from the Objects Hit Points table. It allows for a "light" variant which has half the weight and DR.

[Diomedes]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Where? GURPS Bucklers have a hand grip and shield boss. I can't find anything about size.

It's on B287. Light, small, and medium shields are listed as being available as bucklers, while large shields are not.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Mr Frost

The most important mistake however is that the weight was as much as twice that listed or more ! The mighty Hoplitai Aspis' great weight was one reason for the extra strap that allowed some of the weight to be born on the shoulders and helped give a hoplites' charge a serious increase in impact.

Connolly's reconstruction weighs in at 7kg (15.5lbs) and this has been accepted as a reasonable weight for the classical Argive shield. There is no evidence that a shield strap was ever used. The Argive shield was deeply dished so that the top of the rim rested on the shoulder taking a lot of weight off the arm. You seem to be confusing the classical Argive shield with the larger shields described in the Iliad, which were also circular but that is about all they had in common.They are made of multiple layers of ox-hide and faced with a thin sheet of bronze. They have a central hand grip and a boss, not an arm strap like the Argive shield. They had a shield strap to take some of the weight off the arm and to sling it on the back when not in use. My theoretical reconstruction based on Homer's text would weigh around 20 lbs for one of the largest variants. Aias' 7-layered shield might weigh a little more but Homer says many times that it was exceptionally heavy.

I like the idea of more realistic shield stats , it would make the historical differences important , espically with a few sensible house rules on str requirements and perhaps extra fatigue for heavy designs {the Scutum was also heavy at 22lbs and being the entire weight was supported by only the left hand it would have been at least as tiring to hold , if not more so} etc .

Only the Rebublican scutum weighed this much and it was long enough to rest on the ground when not in active use. The Imperial scutum was made shorter and lighter, weighing around 15 lbs. FWIW the 22-pound Republican scutum is the heaviest shield that I can find from any culture that was actively used in combat (i.e. not as Cover like a pavis).

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Diomedes

It's on B287. Light, small, and medium shields are listed as being available as bucklers, while large shields are not.

Low tech allows all shields to be made in a Buckler variant.

[Diomedes]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Low tech allows all shields to be made in a Buckler variant.

That'll be a good thing.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

Well the Judicial Shields as illustrated in the Talhoffer Fechtbuch are at least Large, I would even rate them as gigantic and by GURPS definition bucklers...

@DanHoward: Will there be anything on Judicial Shields that can be used one- or two-handed???

There is a two-handed Dueling Shield like the ones in Tallhoffer. There is a small Dueling Buckler that the Germans called a hut. I'm hoping that the playtest will hash these out a bit more.