Improved Defaults

[SuedodeuS]

I mentioned this in another thread, and decided it was time I finally got around to posting it. This is an "improved" method of learning skills that default off of known skills. This post goes through the Problem and my proposed solution - see the next one for a better idea of the actual system I'm proposing.

We'll start with the Problem, as I see it. Simply put, once you have a skill high enough, it is no longer worth while to increase skills that default off of it. A simple example is the relationship between Broadsword and Two-Handed Sword (both useful if you enjoy katanas and longswords). Let's say you want to build a Musashi clone, so you buy up Broadsword to a very high level. For sake of argument, we'll say Skill 24 (DX+11 or so). Two-handed sword defaults off of this to Skill 20. You find that you're actually using the two-handed grip quite frequently, so you increase TH sword. This costs 4 cp per +1 increase. The Problem is that investing those very same 4 cp into Broadsword would still give you the +1 to TH sword, in addition to the bonus to Broadsword. The Problem becomes worse when you actually reach TH 24. At this point, you decide to reset the defaults such that Broadsword defaults off of TH. You've invested 44 points in Broadsword and 16 in TH, for a total of 60 points. Reshuffling, this is enough to have TH 28 and Broadsword 24. You just got back all those points invested in improving TH from default in a landslide of skill increase.

Now we come to my proposed solution. It's a fairly simple one. While working within "default range" (in the example above, Broadsword-4->Broadsword+4 is default range for TH), it only costs 2 cp per increase. This gives the same result as normal, without the landslide. It also gives a reason to improve from default, rather than just improving what you're defaulting from. Also, once you've improved from default, this improvement stays if you improve the defaulting skill at full cost. So, if you have Broadsword at 20 and TH at 19, 4 points will increase Broadsword to 21 and TH to 20. If you only want to improve one (Broadsword to 21, with TH staying at 19), this only costs 2 points - because you're still working with "default range." This does not allow you to improve one skill at a discount outside of default range - you can't get to Broadsword 24 for cheap by leaving TH at 12, for example.

Like a B-movie villain, however, the Problem doesn't die that easily. It rears its head again when you take into account multiple defaults. The above Musashi clone would also want to have a good Shortsword skill, working off of the default from Broadsword. Increasing both Shortsword and TH together would, under the new system, still cost just as much as improving Broadsword (and thus improving the other two anyway). It gets even worse if you want to improve Saber as well! To address this problem, I suggest the new system work as follows: 2/level to improve one skill, 3/level to improve all skills.

There's also the problem of low skill levels, where things normally only cost 2 or lower to increase. In these cases, I'd say charge normal price but keep track of skill points invested. If you increase a skill high enough that you should be charged less using my new system, you get the cp refund at that point (which, if you keep an eye on things, shouldn't be more than a point or two).

[SuedodeuS]

Default Range: This is the range of skill levels where you are working within defaults. As an example, Knife defaults to Main-gauche at -3, and Main-gauche defaults to Knife at -4. Thus, the "default range" for Main-gauche is Knife-4->Knife+3, and the range for Knife is MG-3->MG+4. This new system is in effect when skills are within default range of each other. Being at one of the boundaries does not qualify as being within default range.

The System: While within default range, it costs 2/level to improve only one skill. If not within default range, it costs 4/level to improve, but defaults do go up. Essentially, you can never get outside of default range - Broadsword and Two-handed sword will always be within 4.

Multiple defaults: If multiple skills default from one (such as Shortsword, Two-handed sword, and Saber from Broadsword), you can raise all the lower skills at a cost of 3/level. If the main skill (Broadsword in the example) is in default range of these lower ones, it only costs 1/level to improve.

Low skill: At skill levels where increases cost less than 4, disregard this system. Keep track of skill points spent, however - once you reach the point where you would get a discount from this system, you get an immediate CP refund equal to the discount.


What does the hivemind think?

[Humabout]

If I may attempt to extrapolate your post into real world terms, you are suggesting that it is jsut as easy to advance two similar skills together as it is to focus on adn advance one of them individually. Hence the decreased point cost in advancing the two default skills.

Do you not think that spreading your time over multiple skills, regardless of how similar they are, would slow down progress in either one? If there is a problem, it lies not in balance but rather the default system. However, i do not see much issue with that at all. Taking a real world example from my life, I have played guitar and bass for 12 and 11 years, respectively. Recently, I picked up mandolin, and it took me less than a day of memorizing new chord fingerings to be competant with it. Thank you Default to Guitar!

I might further suggest that if you were looking to get better with TH after already learning Broadsword to 24, you'd probably start by adapting your techniques to TH, so you can better use your style. Eventually, you may practice your TH up to par with Broadsword, but that would likely not be the first thing a person would do IRL.

To continue my example, I've already started trying guitar techniques on my mandolin to see what might work. I'll continue to improve it over time, but it will take time to get as good at that as I am at guitar. Techniques might just add some intersting variety and capability in the meantime.

[jacobmuller]

Sounds like a rather complex way of saying secondary skills are Expensive Techniques based on the primary.

I'd stick with the system as is; compared to other game systems, you're already getting skills for free. Is there another game system that does this?
Why increase from Default? Am I right in saying, if you fancy a skill that defaults better from your default than your IQ/DX, one level in the default gets you that other skill, eg you have Broadsword 18, this gives you Shortsword 16 but you find you are going to need Knife skill; unless your DX is 18, you'd get a better start to your Knife skill by buying Shortsword up from default, 4cp gets you Knife 14.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Humabout

If I may attempt to extrapolate your post into real world terms, you are suggesting that it is jsut as easy to advance two similar skills together as it is to focus on adn advance one of them individually. Hence the decreased point cost in advancing the two default skills.

Actually, I'm saying the opposite. Under the current system, it's just as easy to advance two similar skills together (by increasing the better one) as it is to advance one alone (by increasing the one defaulting from the other). Under my proposed system, it's easier to advance just one.

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Sounds like a rather complex way of saying secondary skills are Expensive Techniques based on the primary.

Pretty much, yeah, although it also keeps in mind some of the additional bits. I'll note that the reason I came up with this wasn't actually balance or realism - it was simply the disconnect of "Wait, so I can spend 4 cp to boost both abilities, or alternatively I can spend 4 cp to boost just one?" Charging 2 cp instead gets rid of this disconnect. It also gets rid of the "avalanche" disconnect I mentioned upthread.

I think there could be a bit of realism consideration as well. Humabout, think back to when you were as skilled with the guitar as you currently are with the mandolin. Do you think it will take as long to reach your current level of Guitar skill with the Mandolin as it did for you to boost Guitar up that same amount? I can't play an instrument to save my life, but I suspect it would be much quicker, as you can apply some of what you learned with the guitar when increasing your skill with the mandolin.

[Mehmet]

I could not (sorry) go through all but this would change the "experience in the skill" view of some rules (like optional parry rules).

Cheerio!

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

What does the hivemind think?

I was aware of the problem and your solution "fixes" it, but it's a little unwieldy.

What about an "Improved default" Perk that costs 1 point and gives +1 to skill (not stackable).
E.g. if you had Broadsword 16 and wanted to improve your Shortsword default, it would go from 14 to 15 with that Perk.

That might be a little over-powered, though (and it's less flexible). I am afraid there is no simple "solution" to the fact that you rarely do a good thing improving a "defaulting" skill rather than the highest one.

[jacobmuller]

re "Skills Avalanche": is that really how B173 works?
The RAW example has us buying the skills back to the level they were at before. To equate the RAW to your example, that would mean moving the 44pts from Broadsword to 2Hsword, giving broadsword default of 20, and spending the 16 points from 2Hsword to get this back to 24. Which does seem rather pointless.

But moving the points such that 2Hsword becomes 28, giving broadsword default 24, feels wrong, although it does have a point to it.
We'd also go from having Force Sword 21, Rapier 20, Saber 20 and Shortsword 22, to having only Forcesword 25. Meaning we'd go from being a Master of 6 skills to only 3.

The RAW "You may never decrease either skill level this way, however; you must always spend enough points to keep each skill at its current level." is open to the Avalanche interpretation but I'd not accept it.

[Ulzgoroth]

How do you get a sudden loss of tertiary skills at default? You haven't decreased your functional skill level with either weapon of interest, and I'm pretty sure multi-step defaults are allowed.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Lupo

I was aware of the problem and your solution "fixes" it, but it's a little unwieldy.

What about an "Improved default" Perk that costs 1 point and gives +1 to skill (not stackable).
E.g. if you had Broadsword 16 and wanted to improve your Shortsword default, it would go from 14 to 15 with that Perk.

That might be a little over-powered, though (and it's less flexible). I am afraid there is no simple "solution" to the fact that you rarely do a good thing improving a "defaulting" skill rather than the highest one.

Eh, I think it's only unwieldy if you need to use it in odd circumstances - like increasing the higher skill back up without increasing the lower one (which under the current system would cause you to simply lose 4 cp outright... or get them back later as part of the avalanche), increasing multiple low skills, etc. In the example of someone who just wants to be good at using a sword one- or two-handed, or good at using a broadsword and shortsword together, it's rather simple - 2/level instead of 4/level. Complications really only arise at the boundaries.