Quick question about UC II and above.

[larsdangly]

A related question for the hive mind:

Perhaps there is an official errata on this, but I can't recall off hand what people make of the damage for a kick in the new UC talents. Take UC IV for example:

• Punch. Does 1d extra damage with bare hands in either
HTH or regular combat.
• Kick. In regular combat, roll to hit at your adjDX and
do an extra 1d+1 of damage compared to your barehands
attack.

So, does that mean Kick = base HTH damage +1d+1, or base HTH damage +2d+1? The language is never explicitly clear, but at the lower levels of UC you could argue the DX penalty for kicks makes up for adding the two damage bonuses together. But at UC IV and V you seem to suddenly get a big jump up in your kicks - the DX penalty is gone and both the hand and kick bonuses are going up, so it is like adding a level of the talent raises your offensive output in three ways at once. I'm cool with whatever, but was curious what people are doing with this.

[hcobb]

All modifiers are on the base hand damage listed in the table. They do not stack.

[phiwum]

I tend to agree with Henry, but I hadn't noticed the wording that Lars brings attention to. Your bare hands attack does more, per the entry for punch, and kick does more than your bare hands attack. A literal reading does suggest Lars is right.

It's only my gut saying that the literal reading isn't the intended reading. In each UC, the bonus for kick is strictly greater than the bonus for punch, so I doubt it's additive.

[Skarg]

I'm sure no unarmed attack bonus damage is supposed to stack.

I think the only way to get a HTH attack for damage on the same turn you enter HTH, is to enter HTH during movement. If you use your action to initiate HTH during combat/actions, either by "Attempt HTH" or by an UC throw, then you don't also get to attack for damage. (And if the victim hadn't acted yet, no, they don't get a HTH attack either - their action is falling down and/or whatever they did as an HTH initiation defense - otherwise, there's this weird situation where it's safer to initiate HTH with higher-DX opponents, which would be silly) Or at least, that's how we've always played it.

Choosing to move into HTH after an UC throw may or may not be a good idea, but I don't think it needs to be be improved, because it's an option you can either take or leave. I think that, like all changes to position that happen without using MA (including the normal Attempt HTH action phase option), there is no restriction due to Engagement. So yes one use is to get away from someone who may be about to attack you, though yes it may not be the best thing to do. That's ok because you don't have to do it. There are other tactical situations where it might matter and be desirable to get to move one hex during the action phase and/or jump into HTH immediately rather than wait for the next movement turn.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I'm sure no unarmed attack bonus damage is supposed to stack.

I think the only way to get a HTH attack for damage on the same turn you enter HTH, is to enter HTH during movement. If you use your action to initiate HTH during combat/actions, either by "Attempt HTH" or by an UC throw, then you don't also get to attack for damage. (And if the victim hadn't acted yet, no, they don't get a HTH attack either - their action is falling down and/or whatever they did as an HTH initiation defense - otherwise, there's this weird situation where it's safer to initiate HTH with higher-DX opponents, which would be silly) Or at least, that's how we've always played it.

Choosing to move into HTH after an UC throw may or may not be a good idea, but I don't think it needs to be be improved, because it's an option you can either take or leave. I think that, like all changes to position that happen without using MA (including the normal Attempt HTH action phase option), there is no restriction due to Engagement. So yes one use is to get away from someone who may be about to attack you, though yes it may not be the best thing to do. That's ok because you don't have to do it. There are other tactical situations where it might matter and be desirable to get to move one hex during the action phase and/or jump into HTH immediately rather than wait for the next movement turn.

You certainly have a different interpretation of attempting HTH than I do. Here's why I think that everyone who attempts HTH (whether in movement or as an action) gets an attack. From ITL 103, Options for Engaged Figures, emphasis mine:

(o) ATTEMPT HAND-TO-HAND ATTACK. During the
movement phase, the figure stands still or shifts; when its
turn to attack comes, it moves onto the hex of any adjacent
enemy, and attempts to hit with bare hands or (if it was ready)
its dagger.

Now I don't think that's altogether decisive because that option is a bit loosely written. It doesn't even mention that there's a die roll to see whether the attempt to enter HTH is successful. You might squint and say the attempt to hit does not happen this turn, but I think the simpler reading is that one moves onto the hex, rolls for defender's reaction and attempts to hit all in one turn.

Those who don't think that initiating HTH as an action gives one an attack this turn would certainly conclude that the throw doesn't give one an HTH attack this turn. I reckon the disagreement between your reading and mine is more fundamental than details of UC skills.

[Skarg]

As I wrote, it's how we always played, and we mainly used (and in some cases continue to use) Advanced Melee. I'm not very happy with a great many wording details of the basic-Melee-based Legacy version of the options list, including that one.

In Advanced Melee, the option was to move half MA or less, and attempt to initiate HTH. You can do it during movement if you can do it without getting engaged. Otherwise your action would be to try to get them in HTH.

I don't particularly mind the idea of also allowing an attack, but it seems off to me, and I think it adds some complications that seem strange to me.

[phiwum]

I never used the Advanced Melee rules, having come to TFT only with the Legacy Edition. But I have a copy at hand and you're right that it doesn't mention attempting an attack when initiating HTH.

Without some official word, I reckon we're both parsing tea leaves to some extent. Your reading is more plausible in the Advanced Melee rules and mine with the description of options in Legacy ITL (in my humble opinion). The question is, I suppose, whether the new wording on ITL 103 is a clarification or a misleading edit.

For now, I reckon I'll assume it's a clarification and one can roll to hit on the turn he initiates HTH, whether it's in the movement or action phase. Reading it your way would certainly weaken HTH as an option, for better or worse.

Both editions have the confusing wording that "Initiating HTH combat is considered an attack," which seems to be a point against my interpretation and also your reading that you can attack if you initiate during movement.

I wonder what complications you have in mind. Do you have something specific here?