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Old 01-21-2022, 11:01 AM   #41
tbone
 
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

Before this thread drifts off to wherever forgotten threads go, I thought I'd take a look at the top post once more.

Sure, a lot of players find it fine that cinematic heroes' swords slice through armor in high fantasy, but the numbers that ArmoredSaint points out are indeed a little crazy for anyone wanting more realistic interactions. Out of curiosity, let's see how people's suggestions would change that for the damage monsters in Delvers.

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I'll bypass Argua, who wields a very large axe with insane strength. Her axe chopping through plate doesn't strike me as unrealistic.

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Miao Miao (MM) and Yvor are the two with impressive damage (sw 2d+4 cut and sw 2d+7 cut, respectively) despite swords of modest cutting potential. They both gain a big +4 sw damage from cinematic Weapon Master, so that's the first thing to toss. Without it, MM's edged rapier drops to just 2d, Yvor's longsword to 2d+3.

That's still just enough for MM to penetrate plate, and Yvor epic plate, on average rolls!

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So say we hack the system to lessen swing damage in general, lessening its advantage over thrust. You could reset sw damage to 2 points more than thr, as Doug suggested. Or use my suggested system, which varies this added amount by weapon - but for edged rapier and longsword, it comes out to the same 2-point addition.

So either way, we now get MM dealing sw 1d+2 cut, and Yvor dishing out 1d+4 cut. That's no longer enough for MM to penetrate plate and Yvor to penetrate epic plate on average rolls – but they can do so on good rolls, and Yvor can penetrate plate on even an average roll.

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If that's still an unwanted effect, I suppose there's nothing left to do but bring in the "armor buckles but doesn't break" options. Using either Low-Tech's BTEW option, or my Edge Protection with EP set the same as DR (to mirror BTEW), plate is dented past 6 basic hits, penetrated past 12; epic plate is dented past 9 basic hits, penetrated past 18.

With an average damage roll, Yvor (1d+4) can dent but not penetrate plate. With maximum damage rolls, MM (1d+2) can dent plate; Yvor can dent plate and epic plate.

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That armor effect really makes the difference for realism. Even without any mucking with basic swing damage, just by implementing that armor effect and dropping Weapon Master, MM (2d) is capable of denting either armor but penetrating neither; Yvor (2d+3) can penetrate plate on a good roll but can only dent epic plate.

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And that's that. In short, GURPS/DFRPG clearly lean toward the cinematic in letting hand weapons penetrate armor, which is probably a good thing for game fun. But the system is readily hackable here; with just a tweak or two, armor/weapon interactions can behave a lot more realistically.
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Old 01-21-2022, 02:03 PM   #42
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone View Post
snip
I agree with everything you say here, but it's also worth noting that Miao Miao has ST 10 and Striking ST 4 - pretty cinematic. I don't think I've ever met a totally average-sized person who can hit you as hard as most of the biggest guys at your local gym.

Sir Yvor has ST 16. I'm guessing that's stronger than a lot of NFL linebackers?

Again, DFRPG is a game for 250 point characters with cinematic traits. It seems to me that the very first thing to do if the damage these guys are dishing out seems ...unrealistic ... (by the way, one of them is a cat person) ... is to make characters on 150 points or less.
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Old 01-21-2022, 10:18 PM   #43
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
I agree with everything you say here, but it's also worth noting that Miao Miao has ST 10 and Striking ST 4 - pretty cinematic.
Yep. The above is an exercise in seeing how well swords cut through armor, when wielded by unusually strong people (or cats).

Now if you really want to see something scary, give Argua Weapon Master for that axe, and watch damage go from 4d+3 to 4d+11. Average 25 basic hits, plowing through epic plate with or without edge protection...
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Old 03-28-2022, 01:04 PM   #44
CarrionPeacock
 
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

Sorry for necroing this thread but it seems better than starting a whole new thread.
I get DF/DFRPG is meant to be cinematic action and the high damage is in genre... But then by the same logic shouldn't armor be, if not more effective, at least cheaper and lighter as not to be just a deadweight only useful against lucky mooks?

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For what it's worth, I played in a game with swing = thrust + 2 and it helped with a whole host of stuff. Might not be for everyone, but I dug it.
Was the cost of ST reduced?
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Old 03-28-2022, 01:49 PM   #45
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock View Post
I get DF/DFRPG is meant to be cinematic action and the high damage is in genre... But then by the same logic shouldn't armor be, if not more effective, at least cheaper and lighter as not to be just a deadweight only useful against lucky mooks?
The cinematic standard is that armor is decorative to detrimental and mostly used by bad guys.
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Old 03-28-2022, 01:56 PM   #46
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Was the cost of ST reduced?
I don't recall that it was. Lifting ST (for bows and grappling in this game) and HP were still valuable, so we're talking something like 2-3 points of potential discount per level anyway...no one complained (and we were all on the same scale anyway).
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Old 03-28-2022, 02:01 PM   #47
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

Allowing basic set armor allows some really light low DR so even Noodly thieves and wizards can enjoy some DR without being encumbered to oblivion if you like (and have Basic Set)
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