Damage and injury on vehicle and occupants

[Cernunnos]

A question regarding damage on vehicle and the risk for crew damage.

An example: Two PC tries to escape in a Sloop(TL4), and an enemy NPC tries to damage them by firing at the boat with a musket. Assume he hits the boat doing 4d+2 pi++. He rolls 20, doing 22pi++ damage to the boat. Since the boat is considered homogenous the injury is 22-2(DR) x 1/3 = 6,6 = 6HP to the boat. Am I right so far?

My next question(s), are the escaping PC OK? Consider the following scenarios:

A) The enemy hits the body of the Sloop. ”When damage [not injury, my remark] penetrates a vehicle’s DR, the occupants may suffer damage as well as the vehicle” (B.555). According to the rules one of the PC (assuming he/she is hit after consulting and rolling on the Occupant Hit Table) will suffer Damage/5 number of d6 cu. If the bullet does 22pi++ damage, does that mean that the debris/ricochet may give the PC 20/5= 4d cut damage?!

B) The enemy hits the body of the Sloop, and one of the occupants gets hit. Is it possible that he/she gets hit by the bullet, instead of flying debris? How do I know which type of damage modifier to calculate with? Could (or should) I calculate damage as an ordinary hit: 22-2 (Ships DR) x 2 (pi++) = 40 injury to the poor PC (and should I calculate debris damage (as above) as well?)

Best regards/
C.

[Gollum]

As far as I understand the rules (but I may be wrong; other will tell), the answer is yes.

Yes, one of the occupant risks being wounded by flying debris and yes, if the musket bullet does 22 (basic damage) - 2 (DR) = 20 (penetrating damage), he risks taking 20 / 5 = 4d cut damage.

Yes, he also risks being hurt by the bullet. But then, you will have to use the Overpenetration rules (Basic Set, page 408). The "Cover DR" protecting him will be the DR of the sloop + half its HP. Thus, the bullet will inflict him 22 (basic damage) - [DR + 1/2 HP of the sloop] - [his own DR, if any] pi++ damage.

And you will have to roll two times on the Occupant Hit Table. One for the flying debris and one for the bullet. So, our guy will be very unlucky if he his hurt by both.

Edit
The Sloop SM is +4 (Low-Tech, page 142). With 2 guys inside, it means two 3d rolls against 8. That is about 6.7% chance of being hurt by both.
The sloop HP are 43, so the "Cover DR" will be 2 + 21 = 23, which actually means 0 point of damage for the bullet. Since the poor guy is inside the sloop, and not behind it, it could make sense to use DR + 1/4 HP rather than DR + 1/2 HP to calculate the "Cover DR", though.

[Cernunnos]

Thank you for your answer,

So, do I get this straight?
Debris damage from an average musket bullet : 16 (-2DR hull) = 2d cut damage = avagage 10HP injury
Bullet damage after overpenetrating a Sloops hull: 16-(2+(0,5*43))=16-(2+21)=0

The debris damage might be very lethal, but the actual bullet (penetrating the hull, and causing the debris) is reduced to nothing. Am I interpreting the rules correct? How may I translate this into actual storytelling so that it makes sense to the players (and myself).

Best regards/
C.

PS. Isn't the overpenetrating rules describing the damage for a bullet that passes through the entire ship and out on the other side? DS.
PPS. Just read your edited comment on how to adjust the rules for overpenetration. Seems right. DDS.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Cernunnos

Thank you for your answer,

My pleasure. Others will surely complete that answer as soon as they will read it (it's only 9:55 AM in the USA).

Originally Posted by Cernunnos

So, do I get this straight?
Debris damage from an average musket bullet : 16 (-2DR hull) = 2d cut damage = avagage 10HP injury
Bullet damage after overpenetrating a Sloops hull: 16-(2+(0,5*43))=16-(2+21)=0

Yes. If you choose 1/4 of HP rather than 1/2 of HP, it gives:16-(2+(0,25*43))=16-(2+10)=4 pi++

Originally Posted by Cernunnos

The debris damage might be very lethal, but the actual bullet (penetrating the hull, and causing the debris) is reduced to nothing. Am I interpreting the rules correct? How may I translate this into actual storytelling so that it makes sense to the players (and myself).

As far as I can tell, it is correct.

Some GURPS GM could argue that it would be a better option to use the hull thickness of the boat to determine the Cover DR, since there is only one "wooden wall" to protect the character, but it would give about the same result: a 3" wooden wall has DR 3 and HP 33.

[Gollum]

I'm suddenly wondering. The Occupant and Vehicle Damage rules may be instead of the Overpenetration rule ...

• The Sloop would take the 4d+2 pi++ damage, with all the appropriate modifiers (DR, homogeneous, and so on).
• And the character, if hit, would only take the penetrating damage/5 cut. Which would be explained by being hit by the slowed bullet and some wooden debris.

Actually, I don't really know ... But it would be much more simple to use, and make much more sense.

Please, others, can you help us?

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Cernunnos

PS. Isn't the overpenetrating rules describing the damage for a bullet that passes through the entire ship and out on the other side? DS.

That's not how I read the Overpenetration rules. Each "layer" of material which reduces an attack's HP counts, whether it's HP or DR from cover or HP or DR from a victim's body.

For example, say that you've got a musket ball (4d pi++ basic damage) that does 15 HP of damage to a HP 10 man wearing "breast and back" plate armor on his torso which has DR 3. The first 3 HP of basic damage are absorbed by the breastplate, leaving 12 HP to penetrate the victim's torso. Basic damage is multiplied by x2 for Pi++ damage, meaning the victim takes 24 HP of damage.

BUT, only half his BASIC HP is subtracted from BASIC damage, meaning 12 HP of remaining basic damage from the bullet - (10/2 =) 5 HP from the victim's torso, which leaves 7 HP of basic damage to "overpenetrate."

HP 7 of remaining bullet energy - 3 DR from the victim's backplate = 4 HP of basic energy left on the bullet as it exits the victim's body.

A slight oddity is that a musket is going to be firing a soft lead ball or bullet. Realistically, such a bullet will tend to fragment or deform on impact, especially if it strikes a hard object (it won't deform in soft tissue or material such as ballistic gelatin).

Arguably, against such missiles, or any other bullet which is designed to flatten or fragment, any hard cover should use its full HP when determining overpenetration.

For example, same musket ball as in the example above, but the victim has 1" thick hardwood fence rail (DR 1 HP 14) in front of him which the bullet strikes first.

Against a jacketed bullet, HP of the fence rail would be halved, so 15 HP of basic damage - 1 DR - (14 HP/2) = 7 HP of basic damage which penetrate the fence to hit the victim. 7 HP of basic damage - 3 DR for the breastplate = 4 HP of damage to the victim.

But, against an unjacketed lead ball or hollow point bullet, 15 HP of basic damage - 1 DR - 14 HP = 0 HP of basic damage. The ball barely penetrates the fence rail and bounces off the potential victim's breastplate. Even if he wasn't wearing armor, the bullet wouldn't have enough energy to harm him.

[Gollum]

No answer about this question?

Is it ...

• The guy risks being hurt by the flying debris and then also by the bullet penetrating the hull (two different sources of damage and two different rolls)?
• Or the Occupant and Vehicle Damage rule already takes risk of being hit by the penetrating bullet into account (there is only the cutting damage roll)?

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by Gollum

No answer about this question?

Is it ...

• The guy risks being hurt by the flying debris and then also by the bullet penetrating the hull (two different sources of damage and two different rolls)?
• Or the Occupant and Vehicle Damage rule already takes risk of being hit by the penetrating bullet into account (there is only the cutting damage roll)?

IMHO the second thing. I'll use either the debris/fragment thing or I'll use a penetrating bullet hit reduced by vehicle DR.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

IMHO the second thing. I'll use either the debris/fragment thing or I'll use a penetrating bullet hit reduced by vehicle DR.

Yes, that is also what I think now - after thinking more about it.

Either the fleeing character is on the deck, hiding himself behind the rail, in which case the rule to use is the Overpenetration one (the foe shoot directly at him and the rail is a cover), or the fleeing character is somewhere inside the hull and the foe, who cannot see him at all, shoot at the boat, in which case the rule to use is the Occupant And Vehicle Damage one.

It makes much more sense like that.

Thank you very much for your answer.

[whswhs]

Checking the Basic Set, vol. 2, I see that overpenetration is used when you shoot at a target (such as a person) that is behind cover. That normally works if the person is immediately behind the cover; if not, you pick a target at random and roll a flat 9 to hit.

There is also a reference to Occupant Hit Table, but that appears to be designed for use when you hit a vehicle, described as "an object containing occupants." So you need a big hollow interior, like a vehicle body. I don't think you use this otherwise. Conversely, I don't think you use the regular overpenetration rule when the target is a vehicle and you're injuring passengers at random.

If you have a window to shoot through, you use the occupant hit table to see if you hit a person; if you do, the rolled damage is applied directly to the occupant. You get half the vehicle DR if the window is closed, none if it's open. That seems to be a third distinct case.

I think you pick one or another, and apply only that case's damage. In the second case, the damage can be from "ricocheting projectiles," which sounds like it means your musket ball. I don't think the standard overpenetration rules apply at all to shooting at a vehicle.