Kicking and grappling with foot manipulators

[ismenis]

Hi!

If a character bought two extra arms with the foot manipulators (-30%) limitation, how would those perform when kicking or grappling?

To me, the simplest way to deal with it is just remove the -2 modifier for Kicking and all grappling techniques using the legs. Would you think that is too powerful, just about right, or not enough for 14 points?

If a human being can usually kick at a 1-yard range, would you as a GM allow a human character to have the long limb enhancement for the legs to allow grappling at C, 1?

What would you do for all other martial arts techniques using the legs (Axe Kick, Stamp Kick, etc.)? Do you think those should also get a +2 to their defaults?

If the character can only use the foot manipulators for kicking and grappling, but not for other skills (especially melee weapon skills), how much would the limitation be?

Thanks in advance!

[McAllister]

Originally Posted by ismenis

Hi!

If a character bought two extra arms with the foot manipulators (-30%) limitation, how would those perform when kicking or grappling?

To me, the simplest way to deal with it is just remove the -2 modifier for Kicking and all grappling techniques using the legs. Would you think that is too powerful, just about right, or not enough for 14 points?

If a human being can usually kick at a 1-yard range, would you as a GM allow a human character to have the long limb enhancement for the legs to allow grappling at C, 1?

What would you do for all other martial arts techniques using the legs (Axe Kick, Stamp Kick, etc.)? Do you think those should also get a +2 to their defaults?

If the character can only use the foot manipulators for kicking and grappling, but not for other skills (especially melee weapon skills), how much would the limitation be?

Thanks in advance!

1. I don't believe that Extra Arms (Foot) would ignore the -2 for kicking. I think most of the reason for that penalty is that you're standing on one leg while you do it. Per Basic p. 141, having only one leg gives you -6 to all skills that your legs are part of (which explicitly include all melee skills), so I think the -2 for kicking is already a reduced version of that. I think the only way to eliminate that would be to have enough legs that you can kick someone from a stable position.

2. Martial Arts p. 114 might be helpful here. At first I was questioning whether or not grappling at reach 1 made sense from a standpoint of applying force at full limb extension, but I've come around, I'd allow it.

3. I have no idea what you're trying to do here, actually. Feet can kick and grapple. You want to build a character whose legs are as long as legs, and are able to kick and grapple? That sounds exactly like having normal legs. If you want to buy off the Foot Manipulators limitation so your feet are exactly as useful as longer arms that you stand on, that would be 6 points per Basic p. 53, so if you want to do the same thing but only with respect to grappling, I'd call it 2 points, since it's less than 20% of what limbs are for. Does that help?

[JoelSammallahti]

Quite the opposite from eliminating your kicking penalty, I'd impose that same -2 to any DX-based roll using a foot manipulator if you have to stand on the other one to do it. So you could kick with one normally, or punch or strike with a weapon at -2. When grappling, I'd allow using them either as arms or as legs (as per Martial Arts, p. 79).

EDIT: Although Foot Manipulators would be a decent excuse for buying the Kicking technique, sure.

[ismenis]

Thanks for the replies! The reason for not removing the -2 for kicking seems sound; I suppose someone with this advantage could instead be eligible for the "Technique Mastery: Kicking" perk. So all other unarmed striking techniques using the legs should be no different.

As for the rest of my post, let me elaborate on the idea I'm playing around with:

In the "Using Your Legs" box in Martial Arts (page 79), it says that grappling using the legs is at -2 to DX and +2 to DX, and since it doesn't say anything about reach, I assume it has to be in close combat.

What I'm proposing is allow someone with Extra Arms (2) with Foot Manipulators limitation to remove the -2 to DX while keeping the +2 to ST (and the better ST multiplier in Technical Grappling), and buying the Long enhancement (100% for each +1 to SM) for the legs allows grappling at reach 1. Someone without the FM limitation simply has more limbs than the usual 4.

How much of a limitation would you think is fair if the character cannot wield weapons with the Foot Manipulators? Thematically, a character who routinely grapples with the legs (Black Widow from the Avengers movies comes to mind) is quite likely to have my proposed advantage in GURPS terms, but it would not feel right for the same character to be able to pull a trigger with her toes.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by ismenis

What I'm proposing is allow someone with Extra Arms (2) with Foot Manipulators limitation to remove the -2 to DX while keeping the +2 to ST (and the better ST multiplier in Technical Grappling), and buying the Long enhancement (100% for each +1 to SM) for the legs allows grappling at reach 1.

Extra Arms with Arm ST and Long Arms would do this too - +2 Arm ST would give you the ST boost. Don't forget that NOT having gripping hands - such as Ham Fisted, No Fine Manipulators, and Foot Manipulators, comes with penalties and detriments in Technical Grappling that can offset the raw power of the legs.

Thematically, a character who routinely grapples with the legs (Black Widow from the Avengers movies comes to mind) is quite likely to have my proposed advantage in GURPS terms, but it would not feel right for the same character to be able to pull a trigger with her toes.

Black Widow has such high skill that her most likely play is that she's either bought off the -2 to DEX for grappling with the legs straight up, or she's got high enough skill she doesn't bother. Her Trained ST is probably the full +5 or +50% for grappling at DX+10, and it would not surprise me if she simply had Grappling! as a wildcard skill. They never show her in the MCU doing feats of raw power, but my understanding from looking around is that she probably has a raw DX of 18-20, if not more, but her basic ST is what you'd expect from a supremely conditioned Olympic athlete who is about 170cm and 59kg in mass. Top male olympic gymnasts typically bench about twice their weight - let's give Ms Romanov the benefit of the doubt.

Her weight is 130, giving her about 10 HP. Her ST should enable her to bench press about 260 lbs, or close. If we look at that as about 7xBasic Lift, that's a Basic Lift of about 37-38 lbs, which is ST 13-14.

So ST 14, 10 HP from mass. DX is probably 20. Grappling skills are likely about 30, then.

That gives a Trained ST of 19, and the cinematic switch of "double CP" easily explain what she can do. Absorbing the -2 for grappling with the legs - if you even apply it when talking Wildcard! skiills, is trivial for skills that high.

[ismenis]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Extra Arms with Arm ST and Long Arms would do this too - +2 Arm ST would give you the ST boost. Don't forget that NOT having gripping hands - such as Ham Fisted, No Fine Manipulators, and Foot Manipulators, comes with penalties and detriments in Technical Grappling that can offset the raw power of the legs.

Thanks! GURPS - where more often than not the author of the rules supplement answer your questions personally :D

Since I caught your attention, could you describe the exact drawback(s) of Foot Manipulators and Ham Fisted in grappling, since I can't find them anywhere? As of now, Extra Arms with Foot Manipulators (-30%) and Long (+100%) is 16 points less expensive than Extra Arms with Long (+100%) and 2 points of Arm ST, and therefore more attractive in this instance.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by ismenis

Thanks! GURPS - where more often than not the author of the rules supplement answer your questions personally :D

Since I caught your attention, could you describe the exact drawback(s) of Foot Manipulators and Ham Fisted in grappling, since I can't find them anywhere? As of now, Extra Arms with Foot Manipulators (-30%) and Long (+100%) is 16 points less expensive than Extra Arms with Long (+100%) and 2 points of Arm ST, and therefore more attractive in this instance.

Extra Arms without Foot Manipulators means you have FOUR arms AND two legs, and can apply all SIX limbs to grapple - or four limbs and still be standing.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by ismenis

Since I caught your attention, could you describe the exact drawback(s) of Foot Manipulators and Ham Fisted in grappling, since I can't find them anywhere? As of now, Extra Arms with Foot Manipulators (-30%) and Long (+100%) is 16 points less expensive than Extra Arms with Long (+100%) and 2 points of Arm ST, and therefore more attractive in this instance.

Looked it up, and there are no penalties for No Fine Manipulators in grappling that are associated with feet. So my mistake. Just -2 to skill and x0.6 ST per leg, additive (so 20% bonus over the arms).