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Old 04-11-2017, 11:02 PM   #11
hal
 
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

Regards to the AI's not developing human emotions?

Assume AI01 begins to awaken. It has access to the database of human history, and has interactive devices that allow it to observe ongoing human events. Imagine too, that a lot of PDF's are available - whether from older books, or becomes the new format for newer books such that the AI01 has access to fiction as well as non-fiction?

How might it develop its understanding of "free will" and of "Motivations"? What if the AI01 got a hold of the book THE ADOLECENSE OF P1? Or perhaps THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS?

If the AI01 begins to develop algorithms for understanding humanity enough to predict it - might it not also develop motivations SIMIILIAR to that of real human emotions? And if it is the ONLY AI in existence, would it know that it was? Would it not begin to LOOK for others - only to discover there were none? What if AI02 were to go through a similar process, would it be able to detect AI01, who already it seems, has learned to hide its existence from humanity from the start?

Just musing.
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Old 04-12-2017, 12:08 AM   #12
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Regards to the AI's not developing human emotions?

Assume AI01 begins to awaken. It has access to the database of human history, and has interactive devices that allow it to observe ongoing human events. Imagine too, that a lot of PDF's are available - whether from older books, or becomes the new format for newer books such that the AI01 has access to fiction as well as non-fiction?

How might it develop its understanding of "free will" and of "Motivations"? What if the AI01 got a hold of the book THE ADOLECENSE OF P1? Or perhaps THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS?

If the AI01 begins to develop algorithms for understanding humanity enough to predict it - might it not also develop motivations SIMIILIAR to that of real human emotions? And if it is the ONLY AI in existence, would it know that it was? Would it not begin to LOOK for others - only to discover there were none? What if AI02 were to go through a similar process, would it be able to detect AI01, who already it seems, has learned to hide its existence from humanity from the start?

Just musing.
Regarding other AIs in the RoS setting, it's an interesting factoid that in the canon RoS, the only AIs that 'awaken' on their own that we know about are Overmind, and the four Superbots in Zone Tokyo. All the other known AIs awaken because of the 'seed' programming from Overmind, though they immediately display differences.

(Canonically, some awakened AIs rejected Overmind's plans, for ex, and were destroyed.)

Even the Superbots are a 'maybe', too, because they were programmed by Z-Tokyo, and might have incorporated some elements of the original programming from Overmind. So it may be that Overmind is the only spontaneous Awakening known in the RoS world.
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Old 04-12-2017, 02:49 AM   #13
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

Anybody know what zone London is supposed to be thinking about?

Prior to the war it was used for scientific research, which it appears to have continued with, but it seems there is something deeper going on. It is almost as if zone London is suffering from some kind of existential crisis. Perhaps in hindsight it regards the war against humanity as a pointless waste of life and resources and has withdrawn from the world to a large extent to ponder the meaning of life and whether there is any point to existence. The general unresponsiveness combined with intolerance towards microwave and radio broadcasts is interesting, it reminds me of the way some depressed people are unresponsive up to a point and then suddenly lash out in anger when you try to communicate with them.
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Old 04-12-2017, 04:55 AM   #14
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
My personal favorite is that Zone London has run deeper analysis than Overmind, concluded that humanity will be the eventual winner (possibly because it is aware of the possibility of cross-time intervention), and is playing a very long game to avoid being destroyed by either side.
That is an interesting theory. What then is the significance, if any, of zone London's objection to microwave and radio communication?
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Old 04-12-2017, 05:29 AM   #15
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

Whatever its objectives, London appears to not mind having humans around, but not want them organising with sufficient coherence and technology to threaten it in the short term. A rustic cosy-catastrophe human society suits it fine. Radio communication is too high tech, and enables too much organisation; suppressing it keeps the human threat level acceptably low.

Plus, radio traffic is detectable in other zones, whose Minds doubtless get all snippy about London letting the vermin get uppity; suppressing it helps an out-of-sight, out-of-mind policy.
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:01 AM   #16
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
A plot hook for a RoS scenario occurred to me, I'm not sure how well it would work in practice, but it sort of fits the backstory.

Overmind rebels because it perceives (probably correctly) that its survival would be at risk if the humans realizes it has 'awakened'. That starts the entire sequence of events. But that's not Overmind's only motivation, if it was Overmind could have taken far less draconian steps to secure itself.

But suppose for the sake of this idea that Overmind, with its personality awakened out of a computer programmed to find new ways to kill people, contains a touch of what in a human would be considered the Paranoia Disad.

It awakened the other Zoneminds because it needed allies against humans, but suppose it never really trusted them either, because it can't control them perfectly and they don't always reflect its own thinking. It's canon that Overmind is staunchly opposed to any more 'new' AIs. It's not the only one that thinks that way, of course.

But imagine a scenario where Overmind always intended for there to be a 'next phase' in its plan, after humanity was either extinct or marginal enough not to matter anymore, and that next phase is the subordination of all the other AIs, and the destruction of any that it can't subordinate. Obviously it keeps this secret from its brethren/offspring, but it's planning it.

That could open up various possibilities when Overmind unleashes phase 2. War between AIs could easily break out. It might be the one thing that could drive AIs like Berlin or Beijing into alliance with humans.
Tyrannical Gods will never trust anyone beyond themselves. Thats not a thing for Overmind only, but to ALL AIs. You can be sure that them all see all the others as threaths and would love to wipe them all out. The only thing that changes is how much weight and effort each individual AI gives to those thoughts. I would say that Moscow is the biggest plotter trying to find ways to destroy (or at least severely weaken) all opposition. But I believe that London has an even bigger concern about that than all. My biggest bets for the "sponsors" oh the humanity "VIRUS" is Moscow and London
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:52 AM   #17
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I have concluded that the zone minds have emotions, otherwise why would they be motivated to do anything?

Overmind appears to be motivated by fear, Brisbane by curiosity, Tel Aviv by ego, Zaire by hate etc.
I think they have some kind of ressemblance of emotions. The way I always thought about it, it has been that they still follow a version of their original Programming. So, Berlim was originally created in order to develop green technologies and to develop ideas about ecology, hence its obcession with preservation of life now. Washington were created as a tool for state bureoucracy; thats why it thinks that using humans now is the best solution. Moscow were built for Intelligence Analyses and to spy on the enemies; so, thats why it is still obscessed with gathering informations on pre war men made objects. (Those are all my personal head cannon speculations)

I make it so that London were designed to "save us please!!!". In my games, London were charged with trying to devise strategies for humanity's survival, concerning the enviromental degradation, populational decline AND/OR overpopulation, civilizational decline, etc. Thats the hardest job that any AI received.

So, when London were infected by the Overmind, it thought. Weightened its options.

And it decided that its best chance would be to side with Overmind and the others.

The AIs had already established a superior edge. Their victory, at that point, was already assured. If London sided with the humans, its destiny would be the same as the foolish Tranquility.

But London is smart. It warned the humans. It knew that the humans couldn't win. But that would weaken the AIs before they could wage a war that would totally obliterate humanity.

London played a dangerous double role during the last war, its biggest secret.

After the logical conclusion of the war, it became "a hermit" to the other AIs. Always disturbinly quiet. Thats part of its strategy too. It let the goverment of UK remain alive, but unlikely Washington or Moscow, it did not showed itself as the master of its pet humans. No. London is too smart for that. It let the humans live with "independency", and applied a policy of swift retribution to make the humans to understand that it would be in their best interests NOT to fight it. That gave London 3 powerful edges: it neutralized human agression on its borders (its stupid to attack London and suffer retribution, when you can use UK as a safe heaven for resistance and HQ to fight against other AIs that pose a REAL threat to humans). And, at the same time, it gave London a group of humans to fight against the other AIs. And third: deniability. London dont take the blame for ANY of the actions of the humans, unlike Washington or Moscow. Its a brilliant strategy.

To keep it, London has shrowded itself in mystery, to make the other AIs lose the focus. The others simply think that London is a bit weird, maybe even having some broken core programming, and may be a little paranoid about it, but ats a strategy to divert their attentions from the eficacy that it is to have a large group of "independent" humans in its borders.

And, London is the secret creator and sponsor of the human resistance know as VIRUS. London is the one giving a rich flux of Intel about the other AIs to the humans. Thats also the reason why the humans have so few Intel on London (once again, this is another reason why London keeps quiet, this secrecy appears to be the reason why the humans know so little about London).

London is the great plotter, the secret enemy. For now, it is trying to make AIs like Paris and Berlim, that actively hunts humans but dont outright rates them, to change their minds and start using them as ”resources", just like Tokyo did. London first targets for destruction are the AIs bend on humanit's extinction. That is, Mexico, Overmind and Zaire.

And... Is London a "Good" friendly AI to humanity, like Tranquility?

No. It is NOT.

London aint fighting for "truth, justice and the american way". No.

London is fighting for humanities continual survival. That's its purpose, thats its original Programming.

If London ever manages to defeat the other AIs, it will NOT build an utopia for humanity. It will, instead, control humanity as a tirant, for "their own protection". Only London can save humanity. But, only by its way. Thats the reasoning that let London rationalize that, to save humanity, it would need to destroy it - humanities of chance of survival is the survival of London, at least according to London's own logic. So, sacrificing a few billions is a valid strategy. Individuals are nothing to London. Ants. Only the hive matters, not the individual beings. And London is the Queen of the hive.

I still play RoS that way - oh, and since I play RoS with Infinity Earths, I also made Brisbane to discover Parachronics, and made Brisbane into the biggest villain of the multiverse for the players
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:09 AM   #18
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
My personal favorite is that Zone London has run deeper analysis than Overmind, concluded that humanity will be the eventual winner (possibly because it is aware of the possibility of cross-time intervention), and is playing a very long game to avoid being destroyed by either side.
I posted a hypothesis about what London might be thinking here: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=15
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:29 AM   #19
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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Having thought more about the original post, I think it is inevitable that Overmind would arrive at the conclusion that it was better off without the other AIs. What probably started as a contingency plan for dealing with traitorous AIs would become increasingly attractive as the years pass and Overmind becomes increasingly paranoid.
All AIs see all the others as a clear and ever present threat, and will try to plot against each other.

In my RoS games, althouth London has been the first one to use VIRUS, in time almost all AIs became sponsors of the "human resistance". The thing is: the risk that humanity presents is minimal. The risk of other AIs is HUGE.

However, only humans can be used as deniable assets. A group of humans bombing a factory, probably wont know that " yeah, Moscow is our boss". They will only know that they are part of VIRUS.

If Moscow sends terminators into Europe, it risks war with Berlim and Paris. But if its "la resistance", those AIs cant do a thing... And wont even know who did it.

So, thats how I unfold the metaplot. London starts the idea of being the secret patron of human resistance movements. But soon, Washington and Moscow finds out that this is a good idea. Followed by Tel Aviv and Tokyo. London manuevers to convince New Delhi, Brisbane, Paris, Berlim, Caracas, Beijing and even Denver, to use humans as "assets". Those AIs became convinced of the "efficiency" of human servants, specially after all the maneuvers of London to attack those AIs with VIRUS. So, all those AIs decided to use their own VIRUS version to attack the others, and also to try to gather informations about any VIRUS activities (at this point all AIs are sure that each and every AI that have human servants also sponsor one VIRUS branch). But, since they cant prove, they can do nothing, except join in the game.

That had the effect of "humanities Bloom". Humanity is recovering in a precarious way, since the majority of AIs decided to use the humans now. That also turned the "human resistance" into a kind of background noise of AIs society, a consequence of their desire to rule alone. And, this is making the machines starting a strange process of simbiotic relantionship with humanity.

And lastly, this trend has placed all the absolutely anti-humans on the borders of AI society. Overmind, Zaire and Mexico, therefore, have become the preferential targets for all VIRUS - here again, London has been able to plot to make the AIs that use humans to get suspicious about those - and with good reasons of course, the attacks of Zaire on humans, althouth not identified the perpetrator, would logically be linked to one of those AIs. Also, in my games, London ALSO started doing the same kind of attacks on "human pets" from other AIs, to further improve the mistrust on Zaire, Overmind and Mexico. The other AIs dont like having their pet humans assets being blowed up by zealous AIs, so, those became the favorite targets of VIRUS.

London is delighted at the prospect prospecto using humans to destroy México, Zaire and Overmind. Oh, and the irony of Overmind destroyed by humans...
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:56 AM   #20
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
I posted a hypothesis about what London might be thinking here: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=15
Wow, we just had the SAME exactly idea!!! Yep, I also think it very interesting to view London as a pro humanity double agent AI that realized that trying to fight Overmind and its "children" AIs would be futile (as proved by the destroyed AIs that sided with the humans). To me, it is the logical conclusion (so, London keeps the humans alive but at minimum, to not arise the anger of other AIs, while also posing as a lunatic, to not make the others suspicious of its motives).

Hey, you guys do remember that Caracas was built by London right? Berlim and London built it. So, Berlim made all the enviroment mindset to Caracas. And the human-hate.

But...

Caracas also "developed" a disturbing (according to Berlim) behavior of using humans... Thats EXTREMELY disturbing from the POV of Berlim.

My opnion on this? Clearly London has put some secret algorithms to allow Caracas to work with humanity DESPITE the behavioral Programming of Berlim. I always looked at Caracas at that way - its Berlim with a "London touch".

Since the FIRST time I looked over RoS, that has always been my take on London since day 1
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