Bold Plan of Freedom

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by SinsofDivinity

By steal I meant more from the demons whose job it is to keep them in the Principalities Asmodeus apportions them to. And none of those princes are going to be happy to lose all that essence and the forces those souls represent.

As I said, I have no Ethereal Guide, what rule about interacting with earth do you speak of though?

Hopefully someone else can fill in the page numbers, or maybe I'll get time this afternoon.

As you've no doubt read, Uriel started a genocide against the ethereals, driving them to the Far Marches where he was prepared to pursue them. After he got called off, a Heavenly rule was set in place. IIRC that included no physical manifestations on Earth, ever, no hopping around in peoples' dreams, and no soliciting Essence from people. Clearly these rules are violated at times! It's just always struck me as draconian and rather evil that these rules condemn all but the luckiest ethereals to slow starvation.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

It's just always struck me as draconian and rather evil that these rules condemn all but the luckiest ethereals to slow starvation.

Actually, I see it as more of an outgrowth of the Free Will decree. Ethereals are born of humankind's imagination, and thus will rise and fall as that imagination lingers or wanders. What the rulebreakers are trying to do is to persuade or force people to pay attention (and Essence) to these particular dreams.

It's not a matter of luck. It's a matter of giving people say over what happens in their own head.

I might add that in that sense, the Ethereal pantheons are committing a double offense in Heaven's eyes. Not only are they attempting to replace God as a fit object of worship, but they're actually trying to reverse their natural relationship with humanity and become masters instead of servants.

[ladyarcana55]

I don't know...I feel like something is missing from it all. Reading the initial layout of the adventure seed something keeps nagging at me.

Lilith rebelling against Hell, I can see. Even though She has an awful lot of Freedom, why wouldn't she want complete Freedom? Ironically She can never have complete Freedom because if She ever did, she would have no one to protect Her, and even though she has a ton of geases they wouldn't last long enough.

The Ethereals making a bid to increase their power and influence I can definitely see, but would they really want to anger Heaven and Hell? No matter how powerful they can become they wouldn't be able to withstand a two pronged attack, and Hell is more willing to cheat.

The only way I can see this being feasible is if they took over the Marches. With total control over the Dreamscape they can easily shape Man's imagination and I can see that as really ******* off Heaven, since it removes their Free Will to an extent. I can't see Hell caring about that more than they would care about losing those souls.

Really, the only way I can see anyone pulling this off is if there was another party. What if there was another person covertly helping Lilith and the Ethereals? Creating a three sided War over the humans? I can see Kobal loving that prank and working behind the scenes to make it happen. It would be a helluva punchline, don't you t hink?

[Drakyrias]

What would Blandine feel about this? It would be an incredible attack against Beleth, who extends a lot of authority through the Marches by giving 'sanctuary' to Ethereals. If suddenly the Ethereal pantheons were independent, it would weaken Nightmares influence in the Marches, correct? Would Blandine be willing to allow this?

I agree Kobal would definitely be a co-conspirator.

Some wild cards on Heavens side: Eli and Gabriel.

Gabriel is still insane from Dominic and Laurence siding against her in favor of Christianity when she was operating under orders. Maybe she could be convinced by Lilith that some Ethereal Gods could be converted to Heavens side in a Celestial Cannonization like the Catholics did to many Pagan gods. Not that they are actually gods equal to God, but that they are powerful spirits. Patroning a new Christian-Pagan hybrid church?

[ladyarcana55]

Originally Posted by SinsofDivinity

What would Blandine feel about this? It would be an incredible attack against Beleth, who extends a lot of authority through the Marches by giving 'sanctuary' to Ethereals. If suddenly the Ethereal pantheons were independent, it would weaken Nightmares influence in the Marches, correct? Would Blandine be willing to allow this?

I don't know if she would be willing to allow it, per say, but i can't see her running to help Beleth. I can see her fortifying the borders on her side of the Marches and then waiting to see what happens.

Don't forget, the Tsayadim are still somewhere in the Marches. They could also be a wild card of sorts, raiding the Ethereal pantheons.

Originally Posted by SinsofDivinity

Gabriel is still insane from Dominic and Laurence siding against her in favor of Christianity when she was operating under orders. Maybe she could be convinced by Lilith that some Ethereal Gods could be converted to Heavens side in a Celestial Cannonization like the Catholics did to many Pagan gods. Not that they are actually gods equal to God, but that they are powerful spirits. Patroning a new Christian-Pagan hybrid church?

No, she is angry at them but the fact that there are two holders of the Word of Fire is what is tweaking her.

I don't know if she would be persuaded to help Lilith or the Ethereals because she is Prophecy. One would imagine that she would see the outcome of things, and no matter what, she wouldn't move against Heaven or God.

[Drakyrias]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

Don't forget, the Tsayadim are still somewhere in the Marches. They could also be a wild card of sorts, raiding the Ethereal pantheons.

... Tsayadim?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by SinsofDivinity

... Tsayadim?

Angels of Purity who refused to return to Heaven for re-assignment after Uriel was recalled to the Higher Heavens. They still stalk the borders of the Vale of Dreams, mostly keeping an eye out for illicit movements from the Far Marches. Ethereals watch for them, rarely see them, but fear them nonetheless.

[ISNorden]

In my own campaign, the War has evolved into a three-sided affair: the various Ethereal powers claim to represent Man's unfettered thought, as free from both Heaven and Hell as possible. Not only that, but a few former angels and demons actually serve powers in the Far Marches; these spirits have gained new forms and abilities, and call themselves Gray Celestials. (Search the forums for that phrase and you'll see what I've written about the Third Side... :-) )

Ever since the surviving Elders (Gray Superiors) have set up a base in the Deep Marches, both Heaven and Hell have spread rumors that Lilith might "Defect" to the ethereals' side. Her reasons would be much like the ones you named in the original post. As a spirit of ultimate Freedom, Lilith agrees with two central ideals of the Grays--

1. "Neither to reign in Hell nor to serve in Heaven": both celestial sides are fighting to suppress freedom in the Symphony, and freedom is ultimately greater than political power.
2. "The mind is its own place": Man has the right to create the worlds and spirits he needs; and Gray Celestials have chosen to defend that right. Most do so by serving a pantheon or domain directly; a few serve the Elders in their Deep Marches home, brokering politics between ethereal groups.

If Lilith survives the two-pronged assault that she'd probably suffer after Defection, she'd probably become a powerful dreamshade--powerful enough to become the eighth Elder. With her ties to Hell broken, Lilith's very nature may change; her old Need/Geas-related powers might work differently, if they remain at all.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Actually, I see it as more of an outgrowth of the Free Will decree....Not only are they attempting to replace God as a fit object of worship, but they're actually trying to reverse their natural relationship with humanity and become masters instead of servants.

Found the quote I was after--http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/Tethers/excerpts.html, third excerpt featuring Apollo and Athena. At least for some of the gods, mere survival is at stake.

If Lilith could promise them that, and the nobler ethereals could persuade some of the more peace-loving, on-the-fence angels, you could potentially build an entire new faction. It probably wouldn't survive, but it could make some amazing changes on its way down.

[ladyarcana55]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

If Lilith could promise them that, and the nobler ethereals could persuade some of the more peace-loving, on-the-fence angels, you could potentially build an entire new faction. It probably wouldn't survive, but it could make some amazing changes on its way down.

Ooh...change...

Makes me wonder if Janus would be a co-conspirator?