GURPS After the End 1: Wastelanders

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

To be fair even the most prosperous Big Man* style economies don't operate with Wealth as we know it, they operate with trading favors and concrete goods, not nebulous 'wealth'.


* And following the fall of civilization, that's all that would be left, Big Man Tribal "communism/socialism". Even larger settlements that could arguably be called 'civilized' wouldn't much more than a step above this. If they are... then it's evolved/advanced beyond actual post-apocalypse into the "post-post-apocalypse" rebuilding stage.



But I kinda agree. I'd love to have seen some good Bartering rules*.

*Isn't there a Pyramid article on that?

Yes. There is. I wrote it for Pyramid #3/87: Low-Tech III. It's called "Purveyors of the Priceless."

[Humabout]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

To be fair even the most prosperous Big Man* style economies don't operate with Wealth as we know it, they operate with trading favors and concrete goods, not nebulous 'wealth'.


* And following the fall of civilization, that's all that would be left, Big Man Tribal "communism/socialism". Even larger settlements that could arguably be called 'civilized' wouldn't much more than a step above this. If they are... then it's evolved/advanced beyond actual post-apocalypse into the "post-post-apocalypse" rebuilding stage.



But I kinda agree. I'd love to have seen some good Bartering rules*.

*Isn't there a Pyramid article on that?

I'd look into using Abstract Wealth from Pyramid 3/44 - Alternate GURPS II. It would let you just roll dice to see if you happen to have something to barter to get some goods. I love those rules, myself, and strongly advocate them for their simplicity and ease of use.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Yes. There is. I wrote it for Pyramid #3/87: Low-Tech III. It's called "Purveyors of the Priceless."

I thought there was and I thought it was one of yours...

[PK]

Originally Posted by Jonas

Much less in the same blurb then mentioning using ammunition as currency which appears to entirely contradicts the earlier point.

There's no contradiction. Ammo is not currency in the modern sense of the word; you barter ammo just as you'd barter anything else. The reference to "de facto currency" on p. 29 is shorthand for the actual rules on p. 32, which state that ammo is simply a universal standard for bartering that retains a stable value.

(That said, apparently those three words are confusing enough people that I plan to errata it, along with a minor typo or two.)

Honestly would have liked to see a section on how to handle different variants of wealth/money in said setting types from 'none' to 'bottlecaps' or even settlements issuing proper minted currency once again even if only good locally like has happened historically. Maybe its something that's planned for a future issue and this was just the quick and dirty 'good enough to hit the ground running' summary. Which would completely makes sense for the first issue.

We may go into details on using a variety of currencies in a future supplement; right now we have no solid plans past ATE2 other than "we'd love to do more ATE books." However, in general, you don't really need new rules to add currency to your ATE games, because the standard GURPS rules already assume that Wealth and currency are a thing! So this is just a case of not using the new rule, as opposed to needing a custom rule.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by PK

There's no contradiction. Ammo is not currency in the modern sense of the word; you barter ammo just as you'd barter anything else. The reference to "de facto currency" on p. 29 is shorthand for the actual rules on p. 32, which state that ammo is simply a universal standard for bartering that retains a stable value.

The confusion comes from the concept of a Barter Good having a Stable Value.

That turns it from a Barter Good into defacto currency If a pistol is 'always' a specific value in bullets and a can of food is 'always' a specific value in bullets, then a pistol always 'trades' for a specific number of cans of food, which is fine... it's just not bartering anymore.



That said, if I run an AtE game I'm not sure if I'll stick the default AtE bullets=bucks setting or use some bartering system... one is simpler, they other 'more satisfying'.

[PK]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

The confusion comes from the concept of a Barter Good having a Stable Value.

That's possible, though, in which case it's known as a medium of exchange. In the modern world, our medium of exchange is currency, but that doesn't mean the two are equivalent. In ATE, ammo acts as a fairly stable benchmark for setting barter value. Most items' values will fluctuate dramatically based on local need and want, but bullets are valued more-or-less equally anywhere.

That turns it from a Barter Good into defacto currency If a pistol is 'always' a specific value in bullets and a can of food is 'always' a specific value in bullets, then a pistol always 'trades' for a specific number of cans of food, which is fine... it's just not bartering anymore.

That isn't the case, though. The bartering rules in ATE2 will ensure that (e.g.) a gas mask is not always a specified value in bullets. The gas mask will have a theoretical value equal to (book cost) * (TL multiplier), just as explained in ATE1, but when you actually go to trade it, you'll get anywhere from 20% to 100% of that value, reflecting how much the trader actually needs or wants a gas mask. (This is why a trader PC is nice, because a high Merchant skill can drive that percentage up.)

Bullets are the exception to the haggling rules; a $10 rifle bullet is worth $10. (Although if you really want a bit of fluctuation, ATE2 will have rules for that, too.) That's why bullets are not currency, but they're the closest thing to it, as a stable trade good (also known as the medium of exchange). If a player said he wants to start off "as rich as I can be," he should spend his excess budget on bullets.

That said, if I run an AtE game I'm not sure if I'll stick the default AtE bullets=bucks setting or use some bartering system... one is simpler, they other 'more satisfying'.

Hopefully I've clarified the situation here, because the default ATE rules are a bartering system. No more, no less.

[PK]

We have incorporated some errata and uploaded a new version of ATE1. You should be receiving an update email soon. The specifics are listed here:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...43#post1987243

Among other things, I've revised the description of ammo so that it is (hopefully) 100% clear that ammo is a barter good just like anything else.

[Blind Mapmaker]

So, what was that update just now all about?

Edit: Ninja-ed by RPK himself.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by PK

The bartering rules in ATE2 ....

Aha! Then I'll wait (un)contentedly for ATE2 to release.

[ColBosch]

I'm seeing a lot of use for - surprisingly, perhaps - BattleTech adventures. That universe has a LOT of nuked-off-the-map worlds thanks to the early Succession Wars and the Blakist "Jihad." Having simple rules for radiation exposure and scavenger economies is a huge asset when you're not planning on setting the entire campaign on a lost world. This way, the players don't need to go nuts memorizing specialized rules and equipment lists.

It also could give some neat shake-ups to character roles; sure, the 'Mech jock always knows where the best parties can be found on cosmopolitan New Avalon, but once the team landed on volcano-blasted Jardine it was his skill with people that made him a salvage merchant. The technician is bar none when it comes to scrounging up rare parts for the party's 'Mechs, but it was her years in industrial exoskeletons that allowed her to make use of the ancient Nighthawk power armor, and transformed her into the group's fighter. The aerospace pilot's Navigation skill saw him become the pathfinder and scout, the hulking Elemental is too big to fit in any armor so he stays back and acts as the medic, even the "social" officer's ability to memorize family dynasties and tell bravado-enriched tall tales makes her an above-average bard type.

Basically, I'd take existing characters and use their "flavor" skills and attributes to fit them into different roles. I think it'd be a lot of fun.