Stealth vs what?

[Edges]

When do you roll Stealth uncontested?

When do you roll Stealth vs Per?

When do you roll Stealth vs Observation?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Edges

[When do you roll Stealth uncontested?

When the only people you have to worry about are asleep or entirely distracted.

When do you roll Stealth vs Per?

When there are people around who are paying attention

When do you roll Stealth vs Observation?

When their Observation skill is higher than their perception and they are looking around.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

When the only people you have to worry about are asleep or entirely distracted.

That's what I thought.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

When there are people around who are paying attention...

When their Observation skill is higher than their perception and they are looking around.

This is really where I had the question.

See, in the entry for Observation it says "To spot...someone trying to sneak up on you...you must win a Quick Contest of Observation skill vs. the Stealth..." [emphasis mine]

While in the entry for Stealth, it agrees with you and calls for a Stealth vs. Per roll.

It kind of makes sense that someone untrained in Stealth vs someone untrained in Observation would be on pretty even ground (things like being in plain sight or darkness penalties would probably determine the result). While if either had a point in their skill, it would really give them an advantage.

It also seems funny that someone who spent 400 hours training in Observation is no better at defeating Stealth than someone who's completely untrained.

What's the thinking behind breaking it up the way you have? Is it just for simplicity?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Edges

What's the thinking behind breaking it up the way you have? Is it just for simplicity?

Observation is mostly about making sure that other people don't notice you looking.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Observation is mostly about making sure that other people don't notice you looking.

The text in the skill says that, but it's given as a contested skill for Filch, Camouflage, Disguise, Pickpocket and Sleight of Hand attempts.

[Ketsuban]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

The text in the skill says that, but it's given as a contested skill for Filch, Camouflage, Disguise, Pickpocket and Sleight of Hand attempts.

My interpretation is that those are for noticing when someone tries that on someone else - as it says, Observation is always done at a distance. If someone's trying to pickpocket you, it's a QC of his Pickpocket vs your Per.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Edges

It also seems funny that someone who spent 400 hours training in Observation is no better at defeating Stealth than someone who's completely untrained.

However, the guy who's spent 400 hours in training observation IS a heck of a lot better at the main uses of Observation - IE sitting or standing around quietly studying things without making it obvious you're checking them out.

Observation is a spy skill, a military skill, the skill that people-watchers (anthropologists, snoopy gossips, and hobbyists) use, and the skill that criminals use to causally "case the joint" before breaking in. Under cover security guards and store detectives would use it to watch for shoplifters and pickpockets without making it obvious to the thief that they're being watched.

It's a close relative of Shadowing - Shadowing is for hiding without making it obvious that you're hiding, while Observation (usually) is for standing around in plain sight but not making it obvious that you're checking things out.

If anything, it's primary use is a sister-skill to Stealth (like Shadowing is), not a counter-skill.

[Agramer]

Im my games Im treating Observation skill as perception(visual) that is "active skill".

So
if PC states hes using observation he rolls vs observation instead vision(example: point main in platoon going through jungle,scout/spotter "scaning area" ...),

if PC didnt state hes using observation but is in "dangerous territory"(middle guy in platoon,hiking through hostile territory;when I can assume his character is paying some attention on surroundings) than he rolls vs per/vision.....

if hes walking hand in hand with his sweetheart chatting in "secure area",than Id give him penalty to per/vision due distraction(not paying that much attention on surroundings as on his girlfriend)

Another use I have for Observation skill is to give him more feedback on "what is it that he actually sees"(squad marching beside security fence=vision;Observation=change of guards,regular patrol...etc ;also when looking at some person Id give him clues with Observation that he wouldnt get with vision that would help him determine something more about person hes seeing ....like vision/per= you see rich fop+list of everything he sees on him Observation=same as above+he has very "light gait" that "rings" of dancer or trained fighter....etc)

Also,whenever I can give PC something more I do because Observation is more expensive than simple acute vision.

2 points=vision
4= v+1
8=v+2
12=v+3

So if he bought Acute Vision he would get Vision+6 for 12 CPs..or 2 levels of perception+1 of vision....hence I feel obliged to give much more with it.

[Kromm]

Skills like Camouflage and Stealth normally go up against straight Per (or Vision or Hearing, where applicable). If your Observation happens to be at Per+1 or better, you may use it instead. That isn't the main use of Observation, though, but a nice side-benefit having the skill. Observation's principal use is covertly gathering intelligence in the manner of a spy, a detective on stakeout, a military scout, or a gangster casing a mark: defenses, security, staffing levels, alertness levels, shift changes, objectives of strategic interest, etc.

As for when it's a Quick Contest, the easiest way to think of it is like this:

• When Stealth could actually achieve total surprise, roll a straight success roll. Success grants total surprise.
• When Stealth could at most grant the sneaky party partial surprise, roll a Quick Contest. Victory grants partial surprise.

This decision is necessarily subjective . . . the GM may or may not accept "I'm on alert!" as good enough to shift the first case to the second, and might even wish to tie the choice of mechanics used to a plot point, not rules action.