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Old 02-23-2021, 07:41 AM   #21
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Insubstantiality

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
For those using Insubstantiality as Invincibility, remember that means the source of damage is still there/passing through you.
An Enhancement where you provide Cover DR (equal to your HP) might not be a bad idea. This makes it function more like instant, perfect regeneration than invulnerability, however, which may not be what you're looking for. Some GM's might be OK with an Enhancement that means you provide infinite DR to those behind you, to allow for classic invulnerability, but that's more iffy.

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Originally Posted by Aldric View Post
How does the Always On limitation work with the previous sentence that your natural form (physical or insubstantial) is a feature and you only need to buy this advantage if you can switch between the two ?
I'd say that last bit is inaccurate. If you have Insubstantiality, which form is your natural one is a Feature*, but you'd still need to buy Insubstantiality with Always On if your natural form is Insubstantial but you lack the ability to switch. Even if you can't directly affect anything, an Insubstantial character can be an effective scout, as unless you also have Mute, you can communicate just fine (and if you do have Mute, you can still communicate via hand gestures and the like). The Reapers of The Zombie Knight Saga web serial are excellent scouts and quite useful for giving enhanced situational awareness to their side, despite having no ability to directly affect the material world. Indeed, part of me is tempted to see what could be accomplished with an Always On Insubstantial character in a combined scouting/leadership role.

*Arguably, it's not quite a Feature if your Insubstantiality has Conscious Only -5% on it - reverting to physical if you're knocked unconscious leaves you more vulnerable than the other way around. However, it also means it's easier for your allies to render aid and/or carry your unconscious body to safety. I'd say it's overall still a Feature, although I could see treating Conscious Only on Insubstantial as also being +0% rather than a Limitation (while there are disadvantages to reverting to one form upon losing consciousness, there are also advantages).
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Old 02-23-2021, 08:21 AM   #22
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Insubstantiality

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I'd say that last bit is inaccurate.
It's what the book says: Your "natural" form (physical or insubstantial) is considered a special effect. You must take this advantage if you can change between a physical and insubstantial form.

To me that means that you can write Feature: Insubstantial [0] and simply be insubstantial all the time, with all that comes with it, including the inability to affect the substantial world except with magic or psionics, which are at -3.

The only reason to pay for the advantage with the Always On limitation would be to negate that -3, which is still a hefty 40 points, but probably well worth it in the long run (with several affected abilities)

Otherwise, unless you start throwing around different types of Insubstantial, I really don't feel it's worth the cost from a purely combat point of view. Infiltration abilities, possibly along with invisibility, are unmatched.
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Old 02-23-2021, 09:17 AM   #23
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Insubstantiality

I often think that adding Projection as an allowable enhancements for Jumper (Spirit) would be a better solution.
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Old 02-23-2021, 09:32 AM   #24
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Insubstantiality

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Originally Posted by Aldric View Post
It's what the book says: Your "natural" form (physical or insubstantial) is considered a special effect. You must take this advantage if you can change between a physical and insubstantial form.
I'd say the book is wrong, then, or at least poorly-worded. The very existence of Always On makes this clear. As I noted, a character with Always On Insubstantiality is incredibly useful in a non-combat role. Additionally, there's also the possibility of being an insubstantial combatant - the Insubstantial character can engage others of his ilk, and depending on the setting there may either be insubstantial weapons with Affects Substantial on them, or substantial weapons with Affects Insubstantial may be possible for insubstantial beings to wield (if it works both ways).
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Old 02-23-2021, 10:35 AM   #25
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Insubstantiality

I just checked Compendium I, page 59 for the 3e reference. According to the Compendium, Insubstantiality first appeared in GURPS Supers for Third Edition, on page 42.

Quote:
Your appearance is set as a special effect; you may appear transparent, misty, or completely normal. You can't be invisible without taking the Invisibility advantage (see below). Note that your "natural" form (physical or insubstantial) is also considered a special effect; this advantage must be taken by any character who can change between a physical and an insubstantial form.
There is also the Special Limitation for Always On Insubstantiality, priced at -50%, and the usual penalties for spell-casting and the like are also stated to not apply.

Given that it appeared in Supers, Insubstantiality was probably not designed with the idea of worlds where naturally Insubstantial beings regularly interact with those who are Substantial. Still, seeing the bit about your appearance while Insubstantial in the same paragraph as the one about your default state (Insubstantial or Substantial) being a Special Effect, I think makes it clear. These sentences are only applicable if you've already paid for Insubstantiality.

You can't just jot down Insubstantiality [0] on your character sheet... but you should note somewhere whether your character is Substantial or Insubstantial by default. For when your character is knocked out, or your Insubstantial Advantage is negated, etc. Maybe I am just re-reading too quickly, but I did not see the bit about naturally Insubstantial beings who can become Substantial having this Advantage in Basic: Characters. Well, at least on page 62-63. The line about your default state may not apply in that case, or perhaps it is in the case of anyone with the "Always On" Limitation. So that Power Negation doesn't become a potential work-around.
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Old 02-23-2021, 03:09 PM   #26
Plane
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Insubstantiality

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
For those using Insubstantiality as Invincibility, remember that means the source of damage is still there/passing through you. Under most circumstances, I don't think that can be handled as fluff. Where it does work is something like Superman getting caught in a big bomb blast and coming out fine. Where it doesn't work is Supes shielding innocent civillians, allies, etc.
I think it's meant to be Shadowcatesque "your 1,000,000 damage impale magic sword can't hurt me by going through me because I turn intangible fast enough to stop that" definitely not superman.

This does raise an interesting question about how you can protect other people when you're turned insubstantial though, since your HP/DR normally doesn't interact with basic damage to provide cover DR, one would assume.

A couple ways I can see doing that:

1) use Innate Attack w/ Wall to create HP/DR separate from yourself: you probably need "Affects Substantial" enhancement on it as by default I think it'd only impede fellow insubstantial characters (or their attacks) though I think if an attack from a substantial char had "affects insubstantial" then your wall could impede it to protect substantial chars

2) maybe do something like allow buying "Affects Substantial" on your DR? DR w/ Force Field and Affects Others is meant to be "I'm protecting us all" but that might not work if you're insubstantial for guarding substantial chars. By enhancing it to interact with substantial stuff (even though I think that's more meant for attacks?) you could then shield substantial allies but the downside being substantial attacks can now actually Ablate your DR, even though if it gets passed it can't actually hit you or your HP
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Old 02-23-2021, 04:05 PM   #27
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Insubstantiality

A possibility would be an Affliction with Permiable Wall that causes temporary Insubstantiality. Hypothetically, anything that goes through the wall would 'suffer' Insubstantiality, meaning that they would not attack the intended target (though they might really mess up some insubstantial beings). For example, a hydrogen bomb that fell through such a wall would probably keep falling and detonate on the insubstantial plane rather than the material plane.

Affliction (HT; Accuracy, +10, +50%; Advantage, Insubstantiality, Always On, -50%, +400%; Area Effect, 8192 yards, +650%; Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Increased Range 10,000x, +120%; Persistent, +40%; Wall, Permeable, +60%; Selectivity, +10%; Selective Area, +20%) [175]. You create a wall the cause anything that passes through it to become insubstantial (their gear remains though). You can also apply it to anything within an area if you wish.
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Old 02-23-2021, 04:35 PM   #28
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Insubstantiality

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I think it's meant to be...
Temporarily flashing Insubstantial to evade an attack would indeed be more of a Shadow Cat thing... but that isn't what people were discussing. At least, I didn't think so; maybe I'm wrong? XP It might help to know that Invulnerability was an Advantage you could take in 3rd Edition. Invulnerability to any kinetic damage was 300 CP if the GM allowed it.

Oh, and that I kept accidentally referring to it as "Invincibility" instead of "Invulnerability" in my posts. XP
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Last edited by Otaku; 02-23-2021 at 06:37 PM. Reason: Edited because I shouldn't make assumptions I'm right
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Old 02-23-2021, 07:17 PM   #29
Plane
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Insubstantiality

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
A possibility would be an Affliction with Permiable Wall that causes temporary Insubstantiality. Hypothetically, anything that goes through the wall would 'suffer' Insubstantiality, meaning that they would not attack the intended target (though they might really mess up some insubstantial beings). For example, a hydrogen bomb that fell through such a wall would probably keep falling and detonate on the insubstantial plane rather than the material plane.

Affliction (HT; Accuracy, +10, +50%; Advantage, Insubstantiality, Always On, -50%, +400%; Area Effect, 8192 yards, +650%; Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Increased Range 10,000x, +120%; Persistent, +40%; Wall, Permeable, +60%; Selectivity, +10%; Selective Area, +20%) [175]. You create a wall the cause anything that passes through it to become insubstantial (their gear remains though). You can also apply it to anything within an area if you wish.
Irresistible means DR won't add a bonus to the item's HT roll but it still gets one. Not sure what the HT of bullets or hydrogen bombs is though.
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Old 02-23-2021, 08:56 PM   #30
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Insubstantiality

'12' is the universal for objects unless otherwise stated.
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